Navigating the Evolution of the Workplace

Katherine McCord

[00:00:00] Katherine McCord: Um, number one, if you think somebody else is being hypersensitive to something you have said or done, first respond with curiosity because maybe not. You know, I've, I've had that happen to me where I

[00:00:17] Ed Watters: That's true.

[00:00:17] Katherine McCord: truly, honest to God, and I'm going to tell on myself on this one. There were, years ago, I had an employee who came in with dreads to work and it was, uh, against our current dress code. But she did not know, by the way, she did not know that. And she came in and I said something to her and she goes, Well, Miss Kat, you can't say anything to me about that. That's discrimination against my religious beliefs. And instead of me going, What are you talking? Girl, just go change your hair or something.

[00:00:42] I stopped and I go, Okay, tell me more about, can you tell me, can you explain that to me a little bit? And she did and certainly she was right. So we had to actually update policies, so on and so forth. That was when I was working for another company and, and so that, that changed. You know, I, I was, I didn't mean to be offensive to her, but I was.

[00:01:05] And so I had to go, Okay, oh, shoot, let's, let's change this. And somebody could have gone, Well, that's just her hairdo, you know, she's just, you know? I've had, um, I've had situations, the same thing with like tattooing. I had a lady come in, um, she had facial tattoos. My recruiter told her, I'm so sorry, you're not eligible for a job here because of your face tattooing.

[00:01:25] She said, Actually, that's a religious symbol. You can't discriminate against me. And she didn't say it rudely. She just let him know, you know? So again, the curiosity, right? So maybe something you said, uh, was not meant as offensive, you know, maybe you tried to compliment somebody and it came out in a weird way. But, you know, so ask. Respond with curiosity. Um,

[00:01:52] Ed Watters: To overcome, you must educate. Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn. We are all Dead America, we can all learn something. To learn, we must challenge what we already understand. The way we do that is through conversation. Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best conversations happen with ourself. Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something right now.

[00:02:43] Today we are speaking with Katherine McCord. Katherine is the president of Titan Management, a national people operations consulting firm. Katherine, could you please introduce yourself? Let people know just a little more about you, please.

[00:03:02] Katherine McCord: Absolutely. So, I actually am spending a lot of my time right now, thank you for having me, by the way. I know we forgot that part, Ed. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I am excited. I'm excited to be here, and I'm excited because I've been spending a lot more time traveling internationally and teaching classes about neurodiversity, disability, inclusion, and as well as, best hiring practices and how to truly innovate. Which is what I love. I'm all about innovation, inclusion, and integrity. Those are my three missions, and I eat, live, and breathe by them. And, um, I don't know, what else do you want to know? That's kind of the basics of what I do, and I love every minute of it.

[00:03:45] Ed Watters: Well, Katherine, that's a good place to start, you know? What got you started in this field of work?

[00:03:54] Katherine McCord: That is, that is a really good question. So, I, when I was a little girl, my mother began working in HR. And she would travel around doing conventions, things like that. And I loved to play HR recruiting with her, and I would make her fill out applications, interview with me, um, I would be her boss. I fired her once, which is super rude,

[00:04:18] by the way. Like a little five year old should not be firing her mother, that's not very cool. And then turn around and it's like, Hey, make me some mac and cheese, lady. Um, so that was super rude. But, um, and I, my father, uh, is an educator, and so I had that inspiration. I, he was my stay at home parent and he would take me with,

[00:04:40] take me with him when he did teach college. And, and then even as he, you know, as I got older and he progressed in his career, I would still go to events at his college and sit in on some of his classes and it was just very inspirational for me. And so I always loved education. I always loved HR recruiting.

[00:04:56] And then when I was about eight or nine, my cousins and I formed a pretend company and sold shares to it. So the entrepreneurial aspect was even built in. And, um, I am neuro and physically diverse. I have more diagnoses than most seventy-five year olds, which Aflac actually informed me of on accident. They actually called me because they didn't think they had my age right on a form. And, uh, but I didn't get into that part because of me, I got into it because of the nonsense that I saw happening to other people. And I saw a lot of pain where there didn't need to be pain. So I got into that business to solve that problem.

[00:05:34] Ed Watters: Yeah, it's really a touchy, touchy field that you chose. But

[00:05:40] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:05:41] Ed Watters: you know, with, with the, uh, background you have with your parents, being what they were, that kind of helped you develop the skills that you needed to deal with a lot of people. It's interesting, through my, looking through your files and all that, anti- bias applicant tracking system.

[00:06:06] Katherine McCord: Oh, yeah. I,

[00:06:07] Ed Watters: This intrigues me.

[00:06:08] Katherine McCord: I forgot I invented that technology.

[00:06:11] Ed Watters: Well, is it still active? And could you

[00:06:16] Katherine McCord: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Ed Watters: explain what that is?

[00:06:17] Katherine McCord: Yeah. So, HR tech hasn't really evolved that much since, well, the applicant tracking part of HR tech has not really evolved much since the nineties. So an applicant tracking system, for anybody who doesn't know, is a CRM or customer service tool for humans, right? For HR. And so whenever you apply to a job, that's where your application goes.

[00:06:40] Well, they were developed in the nineties as a response to things like monster. com, careerbuilder, those types of, of, uh, job boards. And what happened was they built it and then they just kind of let it sit. And yeah, they put some cool features, but the actual design never changed. And so I realized over the years all the problems that this caused.

[00:07:01] So from them being utterly confusing sometimes to fill out, to taking way too long and stressing people out, uh, Walmart, by the way, currently has a one hour application process, which is certifiably insane, that we used as a, as a test project for this. And, um, And there's a lot of bias generated in them from showing, of course, things as obvious as name and, and, and gender, and age, um, or potentially age, to things like,

[00:07:34] you know, they, if they focus too much on a resume, certain colors can actually cause bias generation. How they ask certain questions will not cue the same responses from different people. And so, you know, people, it's, it's too, it's too subjective. And so we wanted to make things a lot more clear, a lot more accessible, a lot, and that's the other thing, a lot of these systems have no accessibility features. So if you are vision impaired, if you have different disabilities, good luck, you know? So we

[00:08:03] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:08:03] Katherine McCord: wanted to build the first all inclusive and anti- bias and just better made because as a recruiter, man, the junk I get from those things tells me nothing. So we also wanted to help the hiring team and help them be able to better tell who actually is a fit for their role. So that's what we designed. I tell people it's designed by the diverse for the diverse and it is designed by hiring professionals for hiring professionals. And ask things like, you know, How would you rate yourself on these skills that the company has said is important? And we don't show names, we don't show dates, we don't show any potentially discriminatory information. And everything is structured to make more sense.

[00:08:43] Ed Watters: Yeah, it's kind of interesting you, you apply this all towards disability, inclusion, and neurodiversity. Is there a reason behind that? What, what perks the interest

[00:09:03] Katherine McCord: Yeah.

[00:09:03] Ed Watters: to drive it towards that specific

[00:09:06] Katherine McCord: Well,

[00:09:07] Ed Watters: demographic?

[00:09:08] Katherine McCord: there's a lot of discrimination, and I really

[00:09:14] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:09:14] Katherine McCord: wish that that wasn't true. Um, ageism is one of the worst out there, and ageism is so

[00:09:21] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:09:21] Katherine McCord: stupid. I have a great story about that if you wanted, about why ageism is stupid.

[00:09:26] Ed Watters: I sure do.

[00:09:27] Katherine McCord: You do? Alright, so, we

[00:09:28] Ed Watters: I love stories.

[00:09:31] Katherine McCord: um, so my, my, my grandmother, my Mimi, is, was eighty-six when COVID kicked in. And we are a very close knit family and she was very sad because she missed her great grands and her grandkids and she couldn't see them. And so she got a smartphone and learned that. And then she, she said, I want to be able to see them. I said, Okay, let's teach you Zoom. So we taught her Zoom, she nailed that. And she said, I want to [00:10:00] learn something else. I want to learn something else, this is so fun. And I said, Okay. So you know what?

[00:10:04] We're all tired of giving you cash and checks. We're going to teach you Cash App, you know? So, so we do that. And she, I said, Okay, now request money from everybody. So she went to her four kids and her grandchildren, she said, Okay, send me money so I can practice, so everybody sent her some money. And then she, she looked at me and she goes, Okay, you know, so that, that went really well, I'm excited.

[00:10:24] And then my mother messages her and says, Okay, now, now practice sending it, sending it back to us, you know, so that you can get that right. She goes, Oh no, Katherine says that's too hard, I can't learn that. So my grandmother learned three new technologies and how to be a con woman during COVID. Don't tell me that people over a certain age can't learn new things.

[00:10:46] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:10:46] Katherine McCord: Yeah. Mimi's a trip.

[00:10:50] Ed Watters: There's wisdom in that.

[00:10:53] Katherine McCord: There is. Hashtag be like Mimi. And she also had multiple careers. She, she was a stay at home mother for, you know, twenty some odd years, rocked that, went into the professional world, had a nine to five, then she went on to, um, to be a missionary in Papua, New Guinea, and then came back to the States and helped, and helped run a business.

[00:11:13] So she kind of did it all. So, also career pivots are amazing. And that's another bias that's out there is that, you know, you shouldn't pivot careers, just stick with one thing for life. Um, And then there's a lot of, also a lot of, you know, sexism and, um, all the isms. You know what? All the isms just stink.

[00:11:30] Uh, but I've even seen things as stupid as with, and this is the problem with resumes is, you know, things like the color on a resume. So they go, Oh, they should have used this color, not this color. Or they should have used bold, not italics. Or they should have used this or that. And it's all just so ridiculous.

[00:11:48] And there's no right way to do a resume. You know, there's not, there's not. There's some wrong things like, you know, definitely don't do this, but there's not really a right way to do it. And yet that's the document that everyone's livelihood depends on and that's silly. So we wanted to fire the resume, um, and we wanted to create a more inclusive process

[00:12:09] that helps people get through it because there's just too much discrimination hiring. And again, the technology was blocking a lot of people from employment. And certain groups, including, um, for instance, people with autism, while they tend to be some of the best employees you'll ever have, I, my experience, they are, they have about a seventy to eighty percent unemployment rate. And when I say unemployment, that means full time unemployment. And that's insane, they're brilliant. Why, why is that? But it's just, the system's not built for them.

[00:12:41] Ed Watters: So, what, what type of system do you think we need to drive more inclusion for the disability? Because I'm disabled myself, and I understand some of the blocks and roadblocks and, you know, the struggles that you face in not only your body, but your mind. And it's very hard to reach out for help to

[00:13:10] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:13:10] Ed Watters: get into the workforce and make things happen the way you think they should, but you don't quite understand the tools to get there.

[00:13:24] Katherine McCord: Right.

[00:13:25] Ed Watters: What systems do we need to put in place to handle more, access in a more easy digestible manner?

[00:13:38] Katherine McCord: First of all, I mean, and this goes before we're even looking for our jobs, these things need to be taught. We need to be teaching humans how to do these things, how to look for a job, how to present yourself effectively. And no one is doing that. You come out of high school and college and they're like, Okay, good luck. Bye.

[00:13:58]

[00:13:58] Ed Watters: That's right.

[00:14:01] Katherine McCord: There's no follow up to that, which is utterly insane to me. Um, so first of all, we need to be teaching that. We need to be teaching people how to do those things. And especially for those of us who have different diversities, we need, we might need to learn how to present ourselves more effectively because communication may or may not be a strong skill for them.

[00:14:20] And that may or may not be needed in the job that they want. Um, The next thing that needs to happen is that companies need to be more specific about what they want. So if you go in right now and you start to apply to jobs, which I do all the time just for sport, just to see what's out there, what's going on, what people are experiencing.

[00:14:38] It's a lot of the same nonsense for every single job. And it can be completely different jobs and it's the exact same application process. Well, why in the world would you have the exact same application process for a salesperson that you do for a CEO? What sense does that make? Or for IT, as you do for marketing, that makes no sense. So, so cater things

[00:15:02] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:15:02] Katherine McCord: for the position, cater your information, um, and we need to be more specific about what we want. And we need to come to understand the things that matter and don't. For instance, um, there's a lot of emphasis, and I see this a lot when I, when I talk to candidates and they ask me how to best present themselves.

[00:15:21] You know, years of experience is something that for some reason companies have clung to as a marker of expertise. But let me tell you, I know a lot of people out there, I'm going to use my field as an example, who have been doing HR for ten, fifteen years, who are idiots. and should not be in the field anymore.

[00:15:41] So a level of expertise is what matters, right? It's what we know. And we need to start, so we need to start framing things correctly. But that, that knowledge doesn't necessarily come with a job title, right? So we need to actually understand how to look at people and understand what they can do. For instance, my husband has, was a manager for years and did a lot of hiring.

[00:16:04] He would even help look for his, for candidates, go out into the community, bring people in. So he'd never technically been a recruiter. But then when he decided he wanted to do recruiting, he just walked right in and did it. It was no problem because he'd technically been doing it the whole time. And the few things he didn't know, he was able to learn lightning quick.

[00:16:24] So it may not always, you know, you wouldn't think the manager of a moving company and somebody who had built a financial business from the ground up, you know, would be the person to step into a recruiting job and rock it. And yet he did, you know, and I've seen example after example. So companies need to reframe

[00:16:42] what it is that they're looking for and they need to learn how to present it. So look at it from skills, these are the skills that we need. And this is the problem that we need solved and that's it. And just put it like that. Companies are being way too ridiculous and way too bland with this. Just, this is the problem we need solved,

[00:17:01] can you solve it? Cool. Here's the skills we need you to have, the hard skills. Can you do that? Cool. Have a conversation about that. You know, and then what's cool about you, you know, that kind of thing. Outside of that, who cares? The rest of it you can just

[00:17:14] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:17:15] Katherine McCord: figure out. But there needs to be

[00:17:17] Ed Watters: Yeah, very interesting.

[00:17:17] Katherine McCord: a lot more communication, right?

[00:17:20] Ed Watters: Yeah, a lot more. And people really need to learn more about how to communicate, you stated that earlier.

[00:17:28] Katherine McCord: That.

[00:17:30] Ed Watters: You know, how has the workplace actually evolved over the, let's say, what has it been since COVID hit? Three years?

[00:17:42] Katherine McCord: Three years, give or take.

[00:17:44] Ed Watters: Three, three years. So how has the workplace evolved over the past few years there? And what are we seeing in the challenges that we face post COVID?

[00:18:02] Katherine McCord: So, the coolest thing to me that's happened is that the power shift happened. That now workers are getting the power and they're starting to realize, Hey, wait a minute, hey, wait a minute, I get a say so because you can't live without me. Yet, this is symbiotic. Like you don't get to just tell me how it is and that's just it. And I love that. Now there's some kind of weird things happening with that too, but overall it's great and it's really beautiful. And people are understanding that they, they can have expectations, which is wonderful. Um, we are also seeing better pay, better benefits.

[00:18:44] Um, downside is, companies are getting super nosy during the application process. Now, I think that they are trying to be inclusive, I really do. I think it comes from a good point of, you know, a good, a good place. But they're asking things like, What is your disability? Which, first of all, is illegal. Can't ask that.

[00:19:10] But it, but it is on applications. I've seen it myself. You know, what is your sexuality? Why do you need to know that? That's so weird.

[00:19:17] Ed Watters: Right. Yeah.

[00:19:18] Katherine McCord: Um, a friend of mine, Sidney Ware, whose in HR says, you know, If they can look at you and say, That's none of your business or I don't know you like that, don't ask it. You're being weird, you know, in a bad way. Um, so we're seeing a lot of that. Um, some nosiness, which is strange. A lot more, um, a lot more remote, which is wonderful. I love everything about that. And that's also part of inclusion, um, as much as possible to be remote. Obviously some jobs you can't do remote, do remote. My mom literally had somebody ask her, it was a surgical tech, if they could be remote. Like, how are you going to hand a doctor surgical equipment if you're at your house? [00:20:00] That makes no sense. But anyway,

[00:20:01] Ed Watters: Yeah,

[00:20:01] Katherine McCord: so,

[00:20:01] Ed Watters: yeah.

[00:20:01] Katherine McCord: um, I digress. But we've seen some really cool things with that and we've seen a lot of, a lot of evolution. But right now, there's a very strange phenomenon happening that I've not seen before, and neither have any of the people that I know that have been in HR for longer than I've been alive, and that's that there's a confusion of a lot of companies saying that they can't find talent.

[00:20:32] But then a lot of people who are saying that they can't get a callback for a job, and then there's all these layoffs, so then there's more people in the job market than there ought to be. And it's just, it's this strain, that's the other thing, all these layoffs, which that, that happens, happens cyclically, that's just an overreaction to the economy and or it's planned, which there's a whole other conversation. Um, but right now there is a lot of that confusion.

[00:20:59] So it's been interesting for job seekers because on the one hand, yes, there are a ton of jobs out there. But on the other hand, for some reason, HR folks aren't getting back and hiring teams aren't getting back and nobody can seem to figure out why. I'm starting to wonder if the technology is not working. It's like we all think it's working, but it's just

[00:21:20] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:21:20] Katherine McCord: not, you know? Like I was

[00:21:22] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:21:22] Katherine McCord: recently, I was recently told by somebody who works for LinkedIn that, you know, when you go in there and apply for a job, it tells you how many people have applied. And she said, That number is actually not right. That's just the number of people who have looked. So I'm also going, How many people have looked at a job and said, Oh, 700 people applied, I'm not going to apply to that. But then they would've been the person, you know what I mean? .

[00:21:42] Ed Watters: That's a good point. Yeah.

[00:21:44] Katherine McCord: So who knows?

[00:21:46] Ed Watters: So that internal structure and programming of these tools that assist people in the hiring really need to take a better look at the internal structure

[00:21:57] Katherine McCord: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Ed Watters: and programming. That, that's huge.

[00:22:00] Katherine McCord: Yeah. When I found

[00:22:01] Ed Watters: You know,

[00:22:01] Katherine McCord: that out, I thought,

[00:22:01] Ed Watters: not many people

[00:22:02] Katherine McCord: Oh, my gosh.

[00:22:02] Ed Watters: think like that.

[00:22:04] Katherine McCord: Yeah.

[00:22:04] Ed Watters: That's interesting.

[00:22:05] Katherine McCord: I thought, you know, Wow, if, if, what if that's it, you know? Or, or with Indeed, because I've had situations where I was trying to email candidates, actively going, Hey, I really want you to work for me, you know, from their resume database. And some of them I found later on LinkedIn, they, they said, I even went to my spam and I never got your email. So I'm just curious. I know those systems work overall, I'm not trying to bash LinkedIn or Indeed, but maybe

[00:22:30] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:22:30] Katherine McCord: there are some glitches happening, maybe there's some things not working quite as they should. Maybe that's something

[00:22:35] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:22:35] Katherine McCord: to be looked into.

[00:22:37] Ed Watters: And that does happen all the time. So,

[00:22:39] Katherine McCord: Oh, yeah.

[00:22:40] Ed Watters: You know,

[00:22:41] Katherine McCord: Technology is great when it works.

[00:22:43] Ed Watters: Yeah. Yeah, their technology officer needs to get in and kind of really dive in and look at that.

[00:22:52] Katherine McCord: Absolutely.

[00:22:52] Ed Watters: Now, another part of that also, Katherine, is automation. Because along with COVID, not only did the worker see this ability to empower himself or herself, there also comes along where the companies said, Well, we need to invest more in automation and get the robots ticking and doing these jobs. So there's this influence and balance taking place. And what's your thought on that in the world today?

[00:23:34] Katherine McCord: Um, in general, I think that AI is fascinating. I think it can do some fantastic things, I've watched it work. I've, I've seen technologies just be remarkable for, with applicant tracking and things like that. I am all for automating things like, you know, if you close out a job, every candidate gets a notification email. If you hit reject on a candidate, they automatically get that email. You don't have to sit there and type it up, but at least it lets them know. Um, you know, things like that, that kind of thing is wonderful.

[00:24:04] What makes, what's, what makes me frustrated is that we're seeing a lot of people try to replace humans with AI too soon. And so for instance, I love going to the HR tech conventions. It's, it's a ton of fun. And every time I'm there, I see a couple of new technologies that, oh, we can do what a recruiter can do, we're just as good as a human is.

[00:24:28] I said, Really? I crack my knuckles. Let's test that theory, you know? And, and I, by the time I'm done, they're just like drooping in their chairs. And I'm like, I'm not trying to be mean. I just want you to understand your product has value, here's where it has value. I tell them straight up that this is where your product has value.

[00:24:47] It's definitely something worth marketing, but quit telling people it can replace a human because it can't and here's why. And I, so I think people are jumping to that a little too quick. Um, I think these tools are great, I think there's definitely a place for them, but we need to slow it down a little bit

[00:25:06] and realize that we still need our humans in certain aspects as well. And don't automate everything. Um, for instance, if you have, like I said, you know, if you reject a candidate, they get an auto email that should only be done if you've not spoken to the person. If you've spoken to a person, pick up the phone or text, or however they said they want to be communicated with and let them know. Send something personalized, don't, don't just send them a can thing that's rude. That's so rude.

[00:25:32] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:25:32] Katherine McCord: Human touch matters.

[00:25:34] Ed Watters: Human touch does matter.

[00:25:36] Katherine McCord: Especially in my area.

[00:25:38] Ed Watters: Yeah. And, and you know, in every sector of our world right now, you're kind of seeing this diminished ability in doing their job and completing tasks as asked. It's, it's

[00:25:57] Katherine McCord: Right.

[00:25:57] Ed Watters: really affecting many people in many ways and nobody's talking about it really. But you go in for a prescription, there's mix ups, there's confusion, you know, and it's, look at the restaurants is a good,

[00:26:16] Katherine McCord: Oh, yeah.

[00:26:16] Ed Watters: you know, sign

[00:26:19] Katherine McCord: And what happened

[00:26:19] Ed Watters: of that also.

[00:26:20] Katherine McCord: to customer service, like what the heck?

[00:26:22] Ed Watters: Yes. Yes. So

[00:26:25] Katherine McCord: Terrible.

[00:26:25] Ed Watters: . there, there's this diminished capability in what a company is able to provide because of the limited pooling in the talent. And what you're suggesting is, actually pooling in a different way so you can scrape out the talent that is

[00:26:50] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:26:50] Ed Watters: hidden in the cracks.

[00:26:51] Katherine McCord: Yes, and focus on your missions and, and mission alignment

[00:26:56] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:26:56] Katherine McCord: more than anything else. Like who's, you know, who belongs here? I say this to candidates too, find the companies that match with your personal mission. So, you know, mine

[00:27:04] Ed Watters: Passion.

[00:27:04] Katherine McCord: are, yeah, your, exactly, your passion. Same thing, right? So, so in, so

[00:27:08] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:27:09] Katherine McCord: my missions in life are integrity, inclusion, innovation. Every single thing I do has to hit on those three points, or I don't do it. Or at least two of the three,

[00:27:16] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:27:16] Katherine McCord: or I do not do it. And so it's the same kind of thing, that's what you should be looking for as a candidate looking for a job because you'll get hired quicker, you'll stay longer, you'll be happier, you'll be more productive. But it's the same thing, right? So companies are missing these people that would get in there and just grab hold of that, their project or their job and just run with it, for these people that are there like, Ehh, this is a good paycheck. You know, which there's nothing wrong with that,

[00:27:40] I want to say that there's nothing wrong with just getting a paycheck. But as a company, you are missing talent by just having these bland application processes, you know, get to know people. Go out and, you know, put in a search on LinkedIn and, and see what comments people are making about that and go find you some talent that way. Find somebody who said something genius on a post that way. A few top recruiters I know are doing that, by the way, that is slowly becoming a thing.

[00:28:07] Ed Watters: Interesting.

[00:28:09] Katherine McCord: And, and just get to know people, to get on podcasts, listen to who's been a guest, find a genius that way. Um, you know, get to know the human and find that passion, find that fire, find that person that's going to grab it and run. That's what you want. And in every job, there's that, right? I have known

[00:28:24] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:28:24] Katherine McCord: secretaries that are passionate about their work, I've known product people, IT people, sales people, executives that are just, they just love it. And I've known people that if something is about a certain subject matter, they'll do it and they will rock it. So, you know, yeah, focus on the missions, and focus on the passions, and the hidden talent. And those people that you might

[00:28:47] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:28:47] Katherine McCord: not have found otherwise, you know, those are the, sometimes the best people,

[00:28:50] Ed Watters: Yeah. Yeah, you know, uh, definitely when missions align between employer and employee, there's much more success out of that.

[00:29:02] Katherine McCord: Oh gosh, yes. Yes, I mean, clear communication of what you want from them too.

[00:29:08] Ed Watters: Yes, yes, that's a big point.

[00:29:11] Katherine McCord: This is what we expect.

[00:29:12] Ed Watters: Yes, the ability to communicate effectively, that's also diminishing because

[00:29:19] Katherine McCord: Gosh, yes.

[00:29:20] Ed Watters: there's so much polarization in the world and it's hard to find the common ground and stop injecting our own biases.

[00:29:31] Katherine McCord: Right.

[00:29:31] Ed Watters: It's really an interesting place we're in, not

[00:29:36] Katherine McCord: It is.

[00:29:36] Ed Watters: only in our personal lives, but every aspect of our life is that

[00:29:42] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:29:42] Ed Watters: way. And business.

[00:29:43] Katherine McCord: Every aspect. Yeah.

[00:29:43] Ed Watters: Business has to be very tough right now for almost everybody.

[00:29:50] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:29:51] Ed Watters: So are we seeing an increase in mental health issues [00:30:00] in the workforce?

[00:30:00] Katherine McCord: Oh, gosh. yes.

[00:30:02] Ed Watters: And what are some of those driving factors causing this?

[00:30:09] Katherine McCord: I think that number one, there are still people clinging to the, separate personal and professional. That doesn't actually work inside the human mind. Now, obviously, I'm not advocating for just, you know, spending all day talking about your kids or something at work. That's not what I mean. I mean that we are holistic beings, and so we're at work, but our mother is in the hospital and our kid just got a new diagnosis and, you know, all these things, we're very stressed out. And so if, and right now to your point, there's a lot of polarizing things happening and no matter what side of things you're on, even, honestly, even if you're getting your way right now, that can be stressful because there's so many people telling you that you're wrong and it's so aggressive. And so both sides are so pent up right now for lack of a better term.

[00:30:58] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:30:59] Katherine McCord: And so there's just a lot of stress. And so, you know, we need to understand that people are holistic, they need to be able to function where they're at. So a few things that I've seen work that I think are genius is, um, and the first time I saw this I thought it was hippie nonsense, but once it worked, I was like, All right, well, I've been proven wrong. You got to go with it. Uh, it's the red light/ green light system or the traffic light system, right?

[00:31:25] Uh, so a client of mine, Synchro, they are wonderful with their, uh, inclusion in their mental health practices. And at the beginning of every meeting or conversation they say, you know, Where are you today? What's your color? And it's, green is I'm great, and you can give various shades of green. Uh, yellow means, um, so, so, I need, I need some help.

[00:31:46] And that indicates to other people to reach out and offer them help. Or I'm a red, I am not good. And so if this is a decision making meeting, it stops right there. Where it's, this is not a healthy place to make a decision right now or something like that. We will revisit it. And then people go, Okay, do you need to take the rest of the day? How can we help? What can we do? And people just really jump in and support. And I thought that was genius, absolute

[00:32:12] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:32:12] Katherine McCord: genius. It was just a great, and you don't have to even share why. It's just, this is where I'm at. And then the whole team can come around you to help you and to work more productively and that's really helped them a lot, um, building up psychological safety. Um, of course, so that people can dissent, they can tell you what's going on.

[00:32:31] And then I'm glad that we're actually moving away from being shy about days off. Like now people are like, No, I just need a day off. Like leave me the heck alone. And I'm super glad that we're seeing an increase in that and a truly unlimited paid time off, um, because adults are adults and you should be allowed to adult whenever you want to. As long as the job gets done, who cares? Um, I mean, I actually, when I've hired people to work for my company, I've told them, I don't care if you work two hours a day, if it gets done, it gets done. Do whatever you want to do. You're an adult human, you know?

[00:33:02] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:33:02] Katherine McCord: Um, but I think the mental health is bad because of everything going on and just because of life. I mean, also just life is still life and we're slowly transitioning out of it, which is super exciting. But we need to keep pushing and people, individuals need to remember to look at their company and say, This is my need and I need you to accommodate this. And you can always put in an accommodation request, right? There's always a way to do that. But honestly, if you just go to your manager, I will tell you that nine times out of ten, unless your manager just sucks, nine times out of ten if you go to your manager and you just say, I need help right now, or I need to be able to be off right now, or, you know, whatever it is, they will work with you. So taking a little bit of that responsibility and that, um, self advocacy is very important as well. But yeah, you're right. I mean, it's just, I think the mental health of the United States right now is tragic.

[00:34:07] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:34:07] Katherine McCord: Just across the board. So

[00:34:10] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:34:10] Katherine McCord: everybody give each other grace, please.

[00:34:14] Ed Watters: Yes, yes. And, and the big thing is we're all adults and we have to remember that, especially our top leadership. You know, because that really drives in waves the attitude that most of our citizens put out. So, if we've got good leadership and we've got people trying to, you know, include everybody and make sure things go right,

[00:34:44] Katherine McCord: Right.

[00:34:44] Ed Watters: that really helps.

[00:34:46] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:34:47] Ed Watters: But our world is just, uh, a ball right now that is, you know, uh, you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. And

[00:34:58] Katherine McCord: No.

[00:34:58] Ed Watters: it's just

[00:34:59] Katherine McCord: It's crazy.

[00:35:00] Ed Watters: a fact and we all have to live that,

[00:35:02] Katherine McCord: Yeah.

[00:35:02] Ed Watters: it's part of life.

[00:35:05] Katherine McCord: It is, but it's crazy.

[00:35:06] Ed Watters: So dealing with that mental health and

[00:35:09] Katherine McCord: Yeah.

[00:35:09] Ed Watters: communicating effectively with your employers, and your family, and social circles,

[00:35:17] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:35:18] Ed Watters: that's the most important thing to be healthy is

[00:35:23] Katherine McCord: Absolutely.

[00:35:23] Ed Watters: to be able to let it out.

[00:35:27] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:35:28] Ed Watters: And that's,

[00:35:28] Katherine McCord: In a healthy way.

[00:35:29] Ed Watters: that's why I love podcasting.

[00:35:31] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:35:32] Ed Watters: In a healthy way, yes.

[00:35:34] Katherine McCord: Yeah, same.

[00:35:35] Ed Watters: And, and sometimes, sometimes we have to learn to do that,

[00:35:39] Katherine McCord: Right.

[00:35:40] Ed Watters: let it out in a healthy way.

[00:35:41] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:35:42] Ed Watters: Because we're

[00:35:42] Katherine McCord: And part of that,

[00:35:43] Ed Watters: so bottled up.

[00:35:44] Katherine McCord: and part of that,

[00:35:45] Ed Watters: So,

[00:35:45] Katherine McCord: I'm gonna give a lesson here, I'm gonna give a lesson on this because this is, this is so much a part of this is breaking your ego defense. Okay, so the ego defense is a naturally

[00:35:55] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:35:55] Katherine McCord: occurring phenomenon

[00:35:56] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:35:56] Katherine McCord: in the brain, right? And

[00:35:58] Ed Watters: Yep.

[00:35:58] Katherine McCord: it, it's, your brain needs to be right scientifically. And so when something tells it that it's wrong, it goes, No, I'm not, because, and then it fires up all these reasons. But that's

[00:36:06] Ed Watters: Yep.

[00:36:07] Katherine McCord: not, and that's helpful to us when we're little children, right? And that was helpful back in the hunter/ gatherer days and all that. But it's not so very helpful, especially navigating this particularly, particular world climate, to your point. So when somebody says something to you or you read something and it's, you know, it starts that ego defense, instead of responding with the ego, recognize what that is, take a deep breath and respond with curiosity and say, Tell me more about that. And

[00:36:39] Ed Watters: I love it.

[00:36:39] Katherine McCord: learn, and learn.

[00:36:41] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:36:41] Katherine McCord: Because you will be surprised that

[00:36:42] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:36:43] Katherine McCord: even if you end up not agreeing with that person, fine, whatever, you still learned, you opened lines of communication, and you will grow as a human doing that. Automatically.

[00:36:54] Ed Watters: That's huge.

[00:36:55] Katherine McCord: And you don't have to agree with everybody. You don't, that's okay.

[00:36:58] Ed Watters: Yep.

[00:36:58] Katherine McCord: But truly

[00:36:59] Ed Watters: That's right.

[00:36:59] Katherine McCord: listen and truly be open and respond with curiosity, it makes such a difference.

[00:37:07] Ed Watters: Yes. I love that. Educate yourself because

[00:37:10] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:37:10] Ed Watters: once you are open to educating yourself, others see that and they start mimicking and

[00:37:18] Katherine McCord: Yeah.

[00:37:19] Ed Watters: that's how we grow a better

[00:37:20] Katherine McCord: That's true.

[00:37:20] Ed Watters: world together. So

[00:37:22] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:37:22] Ed Watters: inspiration, inclusion, diversity, you know, all of these things matter when we actually want to live a balanced life. I don't have to agree with anybody, it's, it's, I get to choose to do that. And

[00:37:41]

[00:37:41] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:37:41] Ed Watters: that, that comes with educating myself.

[00:37:44] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:37:44] Ed Watters: And sometimes that takes time, but we, we have to be able to understand that and reciprocate with kindness.

[00:37:54] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:37:55] Ed Watters: And most

[00:37:57] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:37:57] Ed Watters: of all, like you just said, curiosity. Because

[00:38:01] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:38:01] Ed Watters: that's, that's when we get involved.

[00:38:04] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:38:04] Ed Watters: And I like that.

[00:38:06] Katherine McCord: That's so true.

[00:38:07] Ed Watters: Are we missing? Go ahead.

[00:38:10] Katherine McCord: I was going to say, Ed, and on the, you know, you were talking, you mentioned inclusion in the middle of that and made me think, I get a lot of, you know, talking about breaking ego response and responding with curiosity, I get a lot of confusion in my line of work about what inclusion is in the workplace and what it is not. So, and, and in life, honestly. So inclusion, whether in life, politics, workplace, whatever, is about bringing together the different diversities and embracing and allowing them to work in a way that is natural to them, and that embraces their culture, okay? So, in other words, they get to be them as long as they're not hurting anybody else. You get

[00:39:00] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:39:01] Katherine McCord: to be you as long as you're not hurting anybody else and as long, and the business, as long as the work still gets done. So if you have a Christian and they want to, um, say a prayer to themselves, to themselves, not with the whole group, to themselves before lunch, knock yourself out. If you have a Muslim employee who needs to pray, do their daily prayers, and go off to another room, they can do that. What you may not do is inflict your way onto other humans. That's, that's the thing with inclusion, that's the part that people aren't getting. Yes,

[00:39:31] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:39:31] Katherine McCord: you can be over here and be you. You can be over here and be you. You don't get to inflict that on somebody else,

[00:39:36] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:39:36] Katherine McCord: that's the difference.

[00:39:39] Ed Watters: Now that also triggers my curiosity about hypersensitivity. Because we deal with that in a lot of our world today where there's a lot of hypersensitivity and how do we deal with that?

[00:39:59] Katherine McCord: Okay. [00:40:00] So, many of the two different perspectives. So, um, number one, if you think somebody else is being hypersensitive to something you have said or done, first respond with curiosity because maybe not. You know, I've, I've had that happen to me where I've

[00:40:15] Ed Watters: That's true.

[00:40:16] Katherine McCord: truly, honest to God, and I'm going to tell on myself on this one. Years ago, I had an employee who came in with dreads to work and it was, uh, against our current dress code. But she did not know, by the way, she did not know that. And she came in and I said something to her and she goes, Well, Miss Kat, you can't say anything to me about that, that's discrimination against my religious beliefs. And instead of me going, What are you talking? Girl, just go change your hair or something. I stopped and I go Okay, tell me more about, can you tell me, can you explain that to me a little bit?

[00:40:49] And she did, and certainly she was right. So we had to actually update the policy, so on and so forth. That was when I was working for another company. And, and so that, that changed, you know, I, I was, I didn't mean to be offensive to her, but I was. And so I had to go, Okay, oh, shoot, let's, let's change this.

[00:41:08] And somebody could have gone, Well, that's just her hairdo, you know, she's just, you know? I've had, um, I've had situations, the same thing with like tattooing. I had a lady come in, um, she had, um, facial tattoos. My recruiter told her, I'm so sorry, you're not eligible for a job here because of your face tattooing.

[00:41:24] She said, Actually that's a religious symbol. You can't discriminate against me. And she didn't say it rudely. She just let him know, you know? So again, the curiosity, right? So maybe something you said, uh, was not meant as offensive, you know, maybe you tried to compliment somebody and it came out in a weird way, you know, so ask, respond with curiosity.

[00:41:45] Um. And then, you know, if you still disagree with them, okay, but there's still not a cause to be ugly. Then, on the other side, sometimes people are hypersensitive. Some people, that's because of a mental health diagnosis, sometimes it's because of a trauma that they've come, that they've had happen to them.

[00:42:07] And I think that that's something that a lot of people are missing right now. Um, and I'm not going to go into any details, but especially, you know, with, you know, let's say the racial, I'm just going to, as the example with some of the racial issues going on right now, um, and concerns. People are missing that a lot of what they're perceiving as hypersensitivity, is a response to trauma over years.

[00:42:35] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:42:35] Katherine McCord: And so it may not be what you said in that exact moment, but you triggered something from something awful that happened before. And so

[00:42:44] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:42:44] Katherine McCord: you need to be very sensitive. For instance, I have a friend who had police pull a gun on her seven year old black child. And so when you talk about that with her, she can get a little heated and she'll be the first to tell you. And she has to separate herself, calm down, and then she can come back and have a rational conversation. But that triggers that pain of being scared for her child's life. And that was not a comment

[00:43:09] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:43:09] Katherine McCord: to try to bash all police officers, by the way, that's just to give an example. Um, but it's, so just remember that can be it. So try to think about why that sensitivity is there. Nobody has a sensitivity just to have a sensitivity, or because they're inferior, or because they're stupid. There is a reason for that. Now, it can be a shallow reason, like,

[00:43:29] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:43:30] Katherine McCord: I need to protect my ego. That can definitely be a thing. It can be a shallow reason where they just need to, you know, grow up. But a lot of, a

[00:43:39] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:43:40] Katherine McCord: lot of times, um, especially with the types of issues that we're seeing right now, there is a trauma involved, um, or there is an actual reason. So, or it's not sensitivity after all, you were accidentally a jerk. So just things to consider. But sometimes we just need to work on ourselves, right? And you need to realize that you're being hypersensitive to something and you need to calm down. I've had to do it. I've had to go, Okay,

[00:44:01] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:44:01] Katherine McCord: you're getting a little too sensitive for this. Yes, it's based on this, but that's not reality right now. Come on, lady.

[00:44:08] Ed Watters: Yeah, yeah. I think we've all been there, once or twice anyway.

[00:44:13] Katherine McCord: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I did this. I was having this great conversation at one point with a colleague of mine who brought up a dog, who brought up Michael Vick not realizing that I had been working at the ASPCA when all that happened with him and I knew some of the dogs and I'd been part of that whole thing. And man, did I started to go off, not really like on him, but just like on the whole thing. And I

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:34] was like, in my mind, I stopped and I'm like, No, I need to calm down. And he just started laughing at me. And he just, we just, we went on, he goes, Sensitive subject, noted, and just kind of went on. But

[00:44:47] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:44:47] Katherine McCord: in that moment, my brain just went, that was so awful, attack, attack, attack, you know?

[00:44:52] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:44:52] Katherine McCord: Um, and again,

[00:44:52] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:44:52] Katherine McCord: not my friend that said it, but, uh, Michael Vick. So, yeah, you, sometimes you just gotta, you just gotta catch yourself being a little extra.

[00:45:01] Ed Watters: Years later, you're still, Michael. Yeah. And that's a very good, valid point. Yeah, valid point, you know, and a lot of people, like you said, overlook those differentiations between the two, because it

[00:45:23] Katherine McCord: Yeah.

[00:45:23] Ed Watters: really does matter.

[00:45:24] Katherine McCord: It does.

[00:45:26] Ed Watters: It's, it's really odd and some of this is going to be even more challenging as we go forward into our world. But it's, it's always a good thing to keep on top of how people are feeling and doing,

[00:45:48] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:45:50] Ed Watters: and educating yourself on different perspectives, things like that.

[00:45:54] Katherine McCord: Yes.

[00:45:56] Ed Watters: you have a couple different talk shows, you're out there doing podcasts all the time. What are some of the things that drive you to keep educating yourself and making sure our world goes in the right direction?

[00:46:17] Katherine McCord: Um, well, my missions for one that we discussed earlier, um,

[00:46:21] Ed Watters: yep.

[00:46:21] Katherine McCord: I'm also just naturally curious. And part of my neurodiversity is that I have to have things be correct, I cannot have them not correct. So part of, one of my diagnoses is that I am obsessive compulsive. And if

[00:46:36] Ed Watters: OCD.

[00:46:36] Katherine McCord: something is not, yeah, I have legit OCD. Like I categorize my M& Ms and have to have even numbers and so on and so forth. Uh, tons of fun. Um, but it does help me organize myself for work. And then some things have to be correct, I, I have to do things in the most efficient way, the most, you know, practical way, they have to be right.

[00:46:58] And so because of that I constantly have to know everything. I have to know, you know, why is this? What is happening? So I can form, you know, good opinions and, and then teach others because I want other people to be right too. That's another thing. That's just a personal preference, that's not part of my neurodiversity. I want other people to know

[00:47:15] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:47:15] Katherine McCord: things. And so, um, I, going back to my experience with my father and so, and my grandfather as well, who was an educator. And so, it's, I constantly am looking things up and I want to show you, want to make sure that your sources are great. So focus on, on government sites, focus on, in first world countries,

[00:47:37] let me specify that. Um, focus on educational sites, focus on institutions that are based on research. Do not, I repeat, do not go to news sites and only stop there, you can use that as a jumping point. You know, like you can go to CNN or NBC and use that as a jumping point, but then go check the sources and double check the information.

[00:48:01] Be careful with religiously based things, anything based from a particular charity, even if it's a good charity, the research may be good, but double check yourself. That's a biased source. So be very, be very specific with that. And then also don't forget learned experience, the value of that. And, and human experience.

[00:48:21] So, you know, go online. And so, for instance, I, you know, I'm obsessed with neurodiversity. I do a lot of talks about it. So I like to learn all the different neurodiversities and so I'll pick a new one and just, you know, dive, and dive down the rabbit hole. And, and I like to read about it educationally, the, the nuts and bolts, but then I want to know the experience of the humans.

[00:48:42] And so I go on YouTube and I find the people with the diagnoses and I listen to them, I do the podcasts, you know, I listen to their podcasts, I hear their experience, I go hear them speak. And that's part of it too. Because the nuts and bolts can only get you so far when you, especially when you're dealing

[00:48:58] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:48:58] Katherine McCord: with humanity. So you, you want to understand that experience as well. But it's a driving force to make the world better. Because every bit of research, and I mean, Boston Consulting Group, McKinsey, um, Harvard, Oh gosh, who else? Um, anyway, they're, they're endless. Um, it's the end of the day. Sorry, my brain's going. But there's three sources for you.

[00:49:23] Um, they're, everything, oh, Hewlett Packard did a great study on this, that inclusion and, um, and, and being inclusive in business increases productivity, it increases innovation, it increases profits, employee retention, employee health, employee satisfaction, improves your hiring. And so from A to Z, this is just better business.

[00:49:56] And so again, back to the, I need things to be right. If this [00:50:00] is the better way to do it, let's do it. And by the way, the same thing works in life. The more inclusive you are, the better way you, the better you communicate with your partner, the better you communicate with your friends and break that ego defense and respond to curiosity, the

[00:50:14] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:50:14] Katherine McCord: stronger relationships you will have. The more inclusive you are with these people and understand that they are who they are and embrace them and ask how you can help and how you can be an ally, you will have stronger and better relationships, everything in your life improves with true inclusivity.

[00:50:32] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:50:32] Katherine McCord: It's that simple.

[00:50:34] Ed Watters: Yeah. It's a mouthful, you just said a lot right there and, and it's, it's good information. No, no, that's really good. Uh,

[00:50:44] Katherine McCord: And also hashtag don't be a shitty human, like just saying.

[00:50:47] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:50:48] Katherine McCord: Just hashtag don't be a shitty human.

[00:50:51] Ed Watters: Yeah, of course. Katherine is there anything important that we missed in our talk today that you'd like to share with us?

[00:51:01] Katherine McCord: You covered so much, which I thought was great, by the way, this talk really like took a left in all the right ways. Um, I will say this, the, all the information is, is out there for things that you want to understand, even the things that seem most confusing and sometimes you will be flabbergasted at what you learn. So get out there, do the research and learn. Your, it doesn't take that long either. Like I'm not spending like, I mean, I sometimes spend hours and hours, but it only takes a few minutes to get the basics and then you'll start to have a stronger understanding. So take that time and grow as a person. Um, outside of that, you know, again, hashtag don't be a shitty human. It's really that simple.

[00:51:47] Ed Watters: That's right. Any specific, uh, call to action for people?

[00:51:51] Katherine McCord: Yes. Um, you know what? I'm going to say this, Just, as you're, if you're on the business side and you are looking to hire, focus on mission alignment, throw away those idiotic candidate profiles, and, and I see you laughing at me, and throw away those idiot candidate profiles. They don't work, they create bias. And align with missions, find the skill sets, find the creative candidates, get innovative in your hiring. And if you are on the other side and you are struggling, and let's say you have your own diagnoses, you have your own disabilities, Oh my gosh, trust me,

[00:52:32] you, you are going to be a wonderful asset to a company. Do not lose hope. If you want help learning how to best present yourself to companies, I have wonderful friends who, that is their, their mission in life. And I am happy to introduce you. Uh, there are companies out there that are, that is their whole, that is their whole mission to find you jobs.

[00:52:55] If you need that, please reach out to me. I am happy to help you. Uh, one of them is Jobs For Humanity, there are others as well. If you need help, please reach out to me, I am here to help. But in general, align with your missions. Do everything for your missions, run towards them, embrace them, and you will have a happier life.

[00:53:19] Ed Watters: That's well said. Uh,

[00:53:22] Katherine McCord: Thank you.

[00:53:22] Ed Watters: And I can't agree more. You know, align yourself with your passion, your mission, and you're gonna succeed. I love it.

[00:53:31] Katherine McCord: Absolutely.

[00:53:32] Ed Watters: Where can people find you and get in touch with you and the best way to get involved with you?

[00:53:40] Katherine McCord: Yeah, absolutely. So I am the COO of the Octopus Movement, which is an international movement for nonlinear and neurodiverse thinkers. So you can go to the Octopus Movement and I'm there. I'm on LinkedIn everywhere, and I'm one of like two Katherine McCord's with my spelling in the United States. So it's not difficult to find me there. Message me, connect with me, I will respond to you very quickly. Um, and I am happy to engage with any, anyone listening. And then also, um, my speaker site is kmccordspeaking.com and my, uh, my professional site is titanmanagementusa.com. Any of those ways, feel free to reach out.

[00:54:21] Ed Watters: Katherine, you are a wealth of knowledge and it's a pleasure to talk with you. I thank you

[00:54:27] Katherine McCord: Thank you.

[00:54:27] Ed Watters: for being part of the Dead America Podcast today.

[00:54:30] Katherine McCord: It was a blast. I appreciate it. Thank you.

[00:54:34] Ed Watters: Awesome.

[00:54:38] Thank you for joining us today. If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way, please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another great episode of Dead America Podcast. I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you may be.

Links

Career Podcast | Career Launch Live (careerlaunch2020.com)

https://deadamerica.website/navigating-the-evolution-of-the-workplace/

https://www.titanmanagementusa.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherine-mccord-093bb343/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDH88heZK21pHbo_aYt-sgA

https://podmatch.com/guestdetail/1677509028984x866839353608442600