Wanda Webster and Christopher Mack

Christopher Mack and Wanda Webster

[00:00:00] Ed Watters: To overcome, you must educate. Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn. We are all Dead America, we can all learn something. To learn, we must challenge what we already understand. The way we do that is through conversation. Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best conversations happen with ourselves. Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something new right now.

[00:00:55] Today we have a great set of guests with us, Wanda Webster and Christopher Mack. They have a book, actually two books, The Journey Within and Isabella's Starry Night. They have a website, Dynamics of Recovery. Wanda and Christopher, could you please introduce yourselves and let people know just a little bit about you before we get started, please?

[00:01:24] Christopher Mack: My name is Christopher Mack and, uh, it's been a long journey, but I never knew the journey was in because I was an external participant of life's, you know, structures and destructions, structures and destructions. And, um, I grew up in Los Angeles in the era of, I grew up from fifty-three to the sixties and seventies. And I grew up in the drug culture. Uh, you know, I used actively in, you know, it was in the year 2000 that I, uh, discovered another way of life.

[00:02:03] Wanda Webster: So it's Christopher's fault, he started this whole thing.

[00:02:07] Christopher Mack: Yeah..

[00:02:08] Wanda Webster: So I met Christopher about fourteen and a half years ago. And I don't come from necessarily that drug culture or, um, addictions per se, I didn't think so until I started doing the work anyway. Uh, my background is in education and psychology. Um, I, I love to understand people's behavior and why they do certain things. So when Christopher was speaking, many times, you know, through the AA groups, I would attend just, I love learning about this. And a woman stood up and said, But why am I the way I am?

[00:02:46] And I was surprised that AA never addressed this. And it seemed that it was important to the participants, Well, I want to understand more about me. And so I started doing research, this is ten years ago [00:03:00] and before people were speaking about trauma and relating it to addiction, and that is what I came away with, it has to. Because I heard the horrific stories in the room.

[00:03:10] You know, I, when I thought of trauma growing up, I grew up in Iowa, I, I would think, you know, my brother beat me up, or my, you know, my, whatever. Silly stuff, you know, normal child. But when I heard these horrific stories, it, I couldn't help, you know, realize it had to be some connection between that

[00:03:31] and the addictions, the criminal behavior, whatever it was, is that, you know, they were hurting inside. And so my background also with a master's in education and a curriculum specialist, I said, Well, let me create a program that addresses that. We can incorporate AA and we can incorporate Dr. Carl Jung, whom I loved in getting my master's in psychology.

[00:03:52] Well, little did I know that Dr. Carl Jung consulted on the AA book. I didn't know this. But, um, his work perfectly aligns with it when he talks about the collective unconsciousness. He talks about our shadow side, that everybody has a shadow side. We, we're not just, we can't just concentrate on the, you know, fairies, and unicorns, and life is great, which is kind of what I did growing up and would ignore all of the negative stuff. It doesn't serve you. You know, we have to love all of it. It's life. Um, so I created this curriculum, which has now turned into a couple of books.

[00:04:35] Ed Watters: Yeah, it's, it's remarkable the, the work that you guys are turning out. And, you know, being on the streets and helping the individuals that need it most, I, I admire that. That's how we started here at the Dead America Podcast, we went out, started interviewing homeless people and really getting to know the struggles. And, because I've been an addict since I was born, basically. I was born into that culture and I didn't realize it until, heck, I was forty, fifty. And then I actually was turned on to this discovery process and healing myself. It was running away. And that's why I really connect with each of you, you highlight this in your work. What, what was the catalyst between the two of you to get started with this type of work?

[00:05:40] Christopher Mack: I think our relationship, uh, I think our relationship was. Uh, you know, in the AA, the first principle is honesty. So when you live by principles rather than personality, you want to stay as close to, you know, that structure. Because my personality is subject to run [00:06:00] away with you, you know, I'm subject to be on the chandelier swinging naked, that's my personality. But when you use a principle, it's a different thing. So I says, uh, I told, when I met Wanda in the year 2010, I said, you know, I'm a polygamist by nature.

[00:06:17] And this is what I thought myself to be. You know, I had, I really didn't have that practice, but, you know, I didn't wanna be a cheater. I didn't wanna cheat on her and stuff like that. She says to me, That doesn't work. I was astounded. So nobody's ever said to me something doesn't work. And I said, Well, what works for you?

[00:06:36] And when I asked her what works for, for her, she says she's looking for a monogamous relationship. And I said, Oh, okay. So, uh, I don't know what that looks like because, you know, I come from a, a long line of misogynistic male behavior. So that's all I can say. And it, it, it's always, you know, womanizing, womanizing, womanizing.

[00:07:01] And when she said that doesn't work for me, I said, Well, what works for you? She said, um, monogamous relationship. I said, I don't know what that means. Don't know what it is, I don't know how it looks. And she said, Why don't you try it for thirty days? You can be my thirty day boyfriend. And thirty days turn to sixty, sixty turn to, uh, ninety, ninety turn to, and so on.

[00:07:27] But the point is that I started to discover things about myself because I had to go inside and ask, What am I going to get out of this? What am I going to get out of a relationship with you? You know, what's my buy in? And, you know, you know how when you hear that real small voice inside that says, the small voice told me, says, You're going to get spiritual growth and development.

[00:07:51] Now I'm all in. There's something that I wanted in my life at that phase of my life is spiritual growth and development. And that's what, that's what I've gotten for these last fourteen years, spiritual growth and development. And I understand what evolution looks like. And so I've evolved from the drug culture to a culture where, you know, I'm looking for my own sanity, and my own balance, and my own peace, and my own, you know, comfort zone, so to speak, as much as we could be in this culture.

[00:08:24] I heard you say that you went down, you know, to the homeless. And, and I've been wrestling with the homeless idea for twenty-one years and, because I started downtown in Skid Row, which is supposed to be the epicenter of homelessness. And I heard you say you went out on the streets and you found that the people were homeless.

[00:08:46] And I, and I keep on saying the system has it wrong in its definition because they can't apply the right fix. Now here's the point. When I looked at homelessness, I said, It's a socioeconomic condition borrowed [00:09:00] by policies and politics of people with means. But as it further evolved, I think we're in a humanitarian crisis.

[00:09:08] I don't think we define the worth and the value of a man. A man is precious, a man is that beautiful being that doesn't know his worth. And so I think we're in a humanitarian crisis. I think we have to define it and I think we have to live in that definition for truth.

[00:09:26] Ed Watters: Yeah, I believe in that a hundred percent. And I'd like to really touch more on that. But I would like, uh, to get a response about what the catalyst between the two of you was in your relationship with Christopher, what, what sparked that catalyst with you?

[00:09:47] Wanda Webster: Well, Christopher stated to me that he always had a passion to be a public speaker, you know, to get up and speak to a lot, I mean, some of the groups that we, we piloted the program to, we had sixty individuals. To me, that's a pretty big group. But he had a vision of doing this. And I said, Well, this is easy for me. Let me create a curriculum, that's what I do. You know, I've created social/emotional programs that, at one point, one of my programs was in seven different countries.

[00:10:14] So I understand how to write and how to teach from, you know, I'm a teacher. So we wanted to incorporate all of his wonderful work from AA and Dynamics of Recovery, just speaking to groups, you know, kind of freestyle. But let's put a structure to it and that, that was just easy for me. And, uh, we piloted it on the Skid Row for two years in three different locations. To great susuccess, the people loved it.

[00:10:45] Ed Watters: Yeah. Because you guys compliment one another, you guys do it well. And that's a strength. It's, it's, yes, the synergy between you two. You're going to rock the world with it. And I love that because it's a passion, it's evident in you. And going out and doing those things, that really makes people take notice of this.

[00:11:12] Now, Christopher, you were talking about that issue with homelessness. You know, yeah, it is a humanitarian crisis for sure. I'm all in with that. And a lot of people, they don't care. They'll walk right past you. I've experienced it, I've been homeless. I've been a drug addict, I've slept in people's closets that I don't even know.

[00:11:39] And it's a struggle, you know, waking up and not knowing how you got there or why? And that, that continual pull in your mind really gets you down. And there's no one out there educating us how to become a better person [00:12:00] with meaning and structure. Like you just stated, there has to be a little structure there.

[00:12:07] And when I really started challenging myself and looking inside and finding all the disgusting things that I was doing, not only to my wife, or to myself, but to my wife also, you know, and it was evident. Then I noticed it was everyone around me, I was treating them all the same way. And it's because of the frustrations, I was fearful inside and I couldn't release these frustrations properly. So do you have, uh, a structured program that you are moving forward with to implement these types of change, especially right where you are, that's like the hardcore center of some of the biggest disease in our culture today.

[00:13:02] Wanda Webster: I, yes, uh, we, we do. Um, our program is no different than AA. I believe the first step is honesty, right? Um, ours is an honesty and an awareness of taking, who am I? What am I? And all parts of yourself, you know, the good, and the bad, the ugly. Um, because you can't change anything that you're not aware of. You're not aware of it, it's never going to change. So there is a deep honesty. So we relate, because I worked in the entertainment industry for fifteen years, so I like to do film analogy because it seems that everybody loves a good story.

[00:13:42] Everybody seems to love a good film, you know? So, I relate it back to a main character in a film. And I do a lot of film analogies and how a film is structured in a specific way, is that we want to see the flaws in the main character, yes? It would be so boring. There's a couple of rules when you're writing a main character or a hero.

[00:14:03] You never want to write about a victim, because that's irritating. Nobody wants to see a film about a victim. And you never want to write about a 100 percent perfect person. Again we can't relate to that, it's boring. So we want to see that struggle because then what we do is we go through that in our own mind.

[00:14:23] Yes, unrequited love. I remember that in my life. And we're almost like working out and resolving those conflicts by watching that person do it. Uh, it's why the talk shows were so popular when people talked about sexual abuse. And people would tune in because in a way they're kind of trying to work through and process and reprocess something in a healthy way.

[00:14:45] So that's what our book does through, uh, stories, um, examples, uh, journals. Uh, they're, it's, it's so important to ask the right question. Christopher had a wonderful saying in his groups. [00:15:00] He said, That the question becomes the flashlight in the dark halls of your mind. That question, when it unlocks something, because we can only lead someone to the realization.

[00:15:14] I can't tell them, I can't, I can't make it happen for somebody. But we can lead them into that. And lead them into, like, I would, couldn't control Christopher. Well, no, you're not going to do that. Here's how, here's what you're going to do. I just said that doesn't work for me. How about being my thirty day boyfriend?

[00:15:34] That was a question, had to be okay with whatever answer he gave me. So it's the question. And then you start contemplating, reflecting. That reflection, self observation, is critical. And that's the first chapter of the book, The Journey Within.

[00:15:53] Christopher Mack: The first chapter is The Wound and

[00:15:57] Wanda Webster: Well, yes.

[00:15:58] Christopher Mack: And, and, and, and, and I, and I like the analogy of the wound because you can have a wound on your skin and you can watch it heal. You can put, and you can take care of it, you can put Mecuroclear on it. But what about the wounds that are inside of us that were created a long time ago? And I think those wounds are intelligent.

[00:16:20] They send out messages and those messages, they translate into behaviors and those behaviors seem to be a runaway train out of control. And so, uh, some, some art, some, some guy was saying that, that addiction, the fact that we're addicts is that we use the substance as a coping mechanism. It helps us to cope with those.

[00:16:48] We don't know what we're coping with until we go inside and find those wounds. And when we start finding those wounds, we're able to let those wounds go. You know, there's a part that I think that the real, the real, the real plus for AA itself as a group is that it teaches you how to do introspection and reflection.

[00:17:10] And so when you start to use that on a daily basis, you're able to clean up the mess before it starts. But you have to clean up what was the past by looking at those wounds. By accepting those wounds, by not judging those wounds. And that's why it says The Journey Within. So you're actually looking at your inside or you're getting insights about your behavior.

[00:17:37] Um, part of, part of what I started out with is, I'm a nonconformant. Only to find out that I conform to any and everything without discrimination, you know, I'm actually the opposite of what I really wanted to be. And so I don't, and so I don't make healthy choices. There's no choice, there's only addiction.

[00:17:58] And so when people [00:18:00] find what choice is, choice is always more than one option. Addiction says there's not. There's just this, there's just this, there's just this, and that this is the obsessive compulsive behavior. And that's the disorder. But we go in and we take a look at those wounds and we have to address those wounds. And that's how the first chapter is, uh, constructed. It says you're more than, I mean, it's more than a flesh wound.

[00:18:26] Wanda Webster: I think that's the title of the chapter,

[00:18:28] Christopher Mack: Yeah.

[00:18:28] Wanda Webster: It's more than a flesh wound.

[00:18:32] Ed Watters: Yeah. You know, it's interesting because you've come a long ways in your journey. And when you two met, you have already addressed your addiction problems. Uh, now I know that you were also in, uh, other marriages. So these are things like baggage that we take with us, wherever we go, whoever we're with. It's those deep, dark secrets that we want to hide and shame away from. And you give this a brutal honesty and that's really what it takes to address any condition. Any place there's a problem, it needs brutal honesty to address what the core cause is. And this is why I think it's necessary that we get more talking about this type of behavior on podcasts, or vlogs, or whatever. Uh, there's this unconditional love aspect when we think about relationship. And some people agree with it, some people don't. I really do agree that there has to be an unconditional love to this individual that you're going to be attached to. What's your thought about unconditional love?

[00:20:11] Wanda Webster: For each other or

[00:20:12] Christopher Mack: No. It starts in your side, it starts with yourself.

[00:20:15] Wanda Webster: With yourself.

[00:20:15] Christopher Mack: Yeah. That's what unconditional love because you want, yeah. In general, all of that love starts within yourself. So now you can give that out. But shame and guilt are dissolved in the unconditional love for yourself. And so what he was, when he mentioned shame and guilt, they no longer have a factor of ruining or running your life. And so when you, when you have this unconditional love, it says, Well, you know what? I'm forgiving me first. Put the air mask on first, uh, before you put it on the little lady. Uh, but yeah. Uh, you start to dissolve those constructs that run your life. Shame and guilt are twins that come to visit, [00:21:00] and they seem to have a permanent stay in your house until you've cleaned that house, you know? And it's through forgiveness for yourself, and through forgiveness for others. Most people think that forgiveness is letting somebody off the hook. No, it's addressing the issue and dissolving it. That's what it really does.

[00:21:24] Ed Watters: Yeah, that's correct. You know, we, we have to address these underlying conditions. Because I mentioned the baggage, you know, my wife and I, we've been together forty-one years, and this year is our thirty-ninth anniversary of being married together. And I was a disgusting person before I met her, and then that shame/guilt crept in. And I wanted to hide who I truly was to appease my new found wife. And, and it did not work right. And not only did I have baggage, she had baggage also. And we, we, we had to go through it from the age of seventeen till, you know, we're almost sixty now. So this underlying unconditional love kept us together. And the meaning of that comes in many forms to many people. I chalk it up to my religion, my spiritual growth, my acceptance that there's a higher being, something greater than me.

[00:22:44] And I really think that's a plague in our society. And if we don't address those shameful, guiltful things, Hey, I did it. You know, I'm guilty. And when I had to bring that up to my wife after years of hiding this, and, and this is just, you know, when I started the true growth was when I started this podcast. That's when I said, No more, I'm done and you're going to listen to what I have to say, or you have to go. We cannot, you know, argue our life away. This is a mutual bond, I want you to understand who I am, what I am, and why I'm that way. This is going to be heavy work and I need you all in, or you need to decide you don't want this and you need to go.

[00:23:44] And that's heavy for a young man that grew up running because he did not have the ability to stand up on a solid foundation. So [00:24:00] that's hard for many people to live with and deal with. And I'm sure that you've had these same struggles throughout the years, maybe in different ways, but it's a call to growth and recovery. And until you take that unconditional love, and then you find forgiveness in all the disgust that you used to do, you're not going to heal yourself. Is that a good principle that you guys push out?

[00:24:39] Christopher Mack: Love itself is one of the greatest principles in life itself, in this expression of life. Because it can, it can heal and cleanse a lot of those discomforts and those disconcerted ideas or notions that we have about ourselves. So I don't look at love as a personality trait, I look at it as the principle that governs, you know, life itself. So when you have some standard like that governing you, you're, you can't do anything but surrender. And this is the one thing that you don't have something that is holding you hostage or captive. And if you're held hostage without a ransom, what is it?

[00:25:22] Ed Watters: Yeah, I would say that's slavery.

[00:25:25] Wanda Webster: You know, I don't know, I don't know any perfect people out there.

[00:25:34] Christopher Mack: I like that.

[00:25:34] Wanda Webster: And we've all made maybe some less than eloquent choices along the way. Uh, so we're all the same. Uh, but Christopher has a wonderful philosophy, obviously living by principles, not personality. But also he has a five C's of relationship, which we live by. And

[00:25:53] Christopher Mack: The five C's? Oh,

[00:25:53] Wanda Webster: The five C's of relationship.

[00:25:55] Christopher Mack: You want me to say the five C's? Oh man, I am sorry. The five C's, commitment, communications, cooperation, consideration, and compromise. These five C's are dynamic, they're not linear. So because the first, the foundation of your relationship is commitment, the foundation of my relationship is commitment. So we must have this communications. And so when we communicate, we can cooperate, you know, evenly, or we can get rid of all of the spurs on the first, you know, like when you have those sticking out point, we can sand them down, we can get rid of them. Because that's communication, it leads to cooperation. And then when there is, you know, something that needs to be considered, we can always compromise. Now, if you want to know, those are five C's for a healthy relationship, but there are actually seveC's. You want to hear it?

[00:26:57] Ed Watters: Now, now, that's a hidden, I had [00:27:00] the five C's written down. Now, now you've blown me away, you've got more C's. Yes, I need to hear the C's, please.

[00:27:19] Christopher Mack: So, conscious commitment, communications, cooperation, consideration, and compromise lead to compassion. And you have those scenes running your life, all of them. Because now you don't, now, now you can always go and clean up any mess you start, you know, because you don't have guilt and shame around you that says, Oh, they're going to look at you this way, they're going to look. No. You say, no, I man up and I go and confess up and here is who I am.

[00:27:48] Because the minute you stripped off everything, you became naked in your relationship. Now you're naked, you're an embryo. You're being a baby, now baby steps. Yeah. And so now, and guess what? At the same time, there's this place in your relationship that, you know, there's always this consideration of one another. It, it just works that way. You know, I think about Wanda when she's not there, you know? Uh, one of the things that I learned when I first started, I don't want to displease her. You know, it's not just, you know, arbitrary pleasing her, it's saying, you know, How would she feel about this? What would she think about that?

[00:28:34] How would that make her feel? And that's, that's important to me, she is important to me. And when I look at that, but, but that takes place internally, I have that conversation with myself. I don't talk to her about it, but it's the way I feel about it, you know? And, and, and I've never felt that way about anybody. But I'm present in my life.

[00:28:55] And so there are all kinds of events that occur in your life and you're not present for them. But when you're present for the event, you can live by that as a standard. You know, you can put away all of those notions that you have because I'm present in my own life. And I would rather be present in my life than to be absent. And how many, how absent were we when we were out there on them drugs, running up and down them streets late at night, you know, waking up in strange places, or watch this, watch this, or not going to bed. So,

[00:29:37] Ed Watters: Yeah. Hey, you know, speaking of that, you know, the old me was a bad me. And I have this thing. If, if that force puts you together, there's a honing beacon on you. And my wife, [00:30:00] you know, I was trying to get away from it all and I was out, you know, with another gal up in her room. And my wife didn't know where I was at all, didn't have a clue. But there she is knocking on that gal's front door. And I'm like, Oh, crap, you know? And there, there's always this, and then I was in Salt Lake City and my wife ended up leaving me for a week and I didn't know where she was. And, uh, out of nowhere, somebody walked into the shop and said, Hey, there's this guy boasting about, uh, moving in with the manager of Pearson's power equipment. And

[00:30:55] I said, what? This is a huge metropolitan area, and boom, there it is. Okay, did you have time to think about what you've done? Here, go speak to her. So that force is always directing a couple that are, is together, even through this disgusting dirt that we roll through. But I'll tell you, it's like, uh, you fell into a sewer and crawled out. There's a pool of fresh water to wash off with right there. And that's where we are now. We're just starting to wash that stink off, that filth, and that dirt. And we're still, you know, pretty new to it and walking this every day now. We've created new habits, you know, every morning starts off with an I love you. And, you know, every Saturday we take time and we read books

[00:32:01] to better ourselves. And we each take a turn to read and then we discuss what we've read to keep ourselves connected. And it's the best time of my life now, because I don't have to worry about that dirt, that filth, that, uh, shame and guilt that I hid from. I'm running now, I'm telling you, there's, I'm like a freight train with it. And I think it's relevant in our world that everybody needs to know, You've got dirt, find the fresh pool of water and jump into it. And that, that's the only way to clean yourself up is to be honest and boast about your achievement when you're done with it. And go forward and tell people your story, that's what we're here today [00:33:00] doing. And that's why I'm so connected with your cause and especially where you are. I think you have powerful meaning in the world because of this greater force that I just explained. It brought you together for this unifying cause. Where do you feel that it's going next, with this couple?

[00:33:31] Wanda Webster: Well, I agree with you. I think it, it was a destiny that we meet and that we had this plan to, I didn't think I would ever create something like this. If you would have told me this twenty years ago, I would have thought, You're kind of crazy, you know? It wasn't in my plan. However, when the energy started rolling, I had, I had no, it was almost like I had no choice because I kept getting the downloads and the information.

[00:33:57] Well, then let me just put it on paper. Oh, well, let me just put it into a book. And then two years ago, I started getting downloads to write a fictional story. This, I resisted for two years. I kept saying, Well, that's not me, I'm not a good enough writer, I can't do that. Go get somebody else to do that. And then the, it, the, the messages just got louder and louder. And my dreams, every night I would dream about my character, Isabel, and her going across the country and learning some life lessons.

[00:34:29] And they kept saying, No, it's you. You're supposed to write this book because it will show, it will put The, The Journey Within, it will put those principles, that whole program into a visual for people to see. Well, what does it look like if I live my life like this? And what is her character arc when she starts living her life like this? She's naturally introspective. That helped her, okay? Uh, so it does feel like there's an energy behind this that we have no choice but just to keep going on. And whatever that plan is, I, I see us, we work one on one with groups, we, we want to get back into doing live groups with people. COVID disrupted everything, um, and our lives got very busy, but I think we want to get back into that.

[00:35:23] We're going to, we are actually going on a trip to Columbia, South America, to participate in a healing retreat. And we get to present some of our things to the group. Uh, so that's like the first foray back into live events, but I do see us doing this one on one counseling and coaching. That's what we do now. Uh, it's really fulfilling, it's just fulfilling work. That's all I can say. And I can't stop it, you know, even if I wanted to. It just shows up, it just shows up. The invitations show up. I don't know about [00:36:00] you.

[00:36:00] Christopher Mack: I have no choice. Um, when you hear that, when you hear that small voice that says you're going to get spiritual growth and, and, and, and development, I understood that intrinsically, naturally. And so, to not be with you is not natural at this point. Because as, as he stated, uh, it's not just a presence, it's an intelligence that's far beyond anything I can see. And so that intelligence that communicates with you, you know, is far greater than my intelligence. And so we've been through some things that has caused the intimacy in us to be, uh,

[00:36:45] one of those beautiful treasures that we have. I was listening to her talk about, you know, how they share those moments and that's intimacy. And the intimacy that we create in our lives together. In the morning when we get up, we have a cup of coffee, we have a conversation, we sit on the couch until I'm ready to go to work and all that. Those intimate, that's intimacy to me. And I've never had intimacy in a relationship. And that intimacy, I'm able to have an intimate relationship with myself, but most of all, I'm able to share my intimacy with you. And so I have no other choice, I, I, I'm stuck.

[00:37:34] Ed Watters: Well, that's truly power right there. And, and when people find that joy and that happiness, it, it just starts clicking out, you know? And I, I believe you are on your fourteenth, going on fifteenth year now together? That is a very powerful transitional time in a relationship, and it really started propelling us forward. And I remember it, because that's about the time that we found that divine force holding us together. And it was really relevant then and that, that's really the catalyst point in my evolution period where I really wanted to change. And I didn't know how to change and that's when it really turned frustrating for me, I remember that. And it's just so nice to have people out there putting information like this out for young people that are going through some of these scary, but yet trying times of our life that we have to endure. [00:39:00] And you guys put out some cards. Is it like a playing deck card?

[00:39:12] Wanda Webster: No. They are, hold on let me pull them out.

[00:39:15] Christopher Mack: They're like oracle cards.

[00:39:17] Wanda Webster: Yeah, they're like oracle cards. So, uh,

[00:39:21] Christopher Mack: Introspection and reflection.

[00:39:23] Wanda Webster: designed like this. They're called, uh, The Dynamic Deck. So each one of them, so let's say, well, what's my message today or what, this week, what am I going to be working on? You pull something out, it says, your life is simply a reflection of how much truth is present. How much darkness is covering up my light? So there's a question and there's also a truth and then that question. So this is what I need to reflect on, is there anything I'm not being so truthful about? So that's how you use an oracle deck. Or perhaps let's say you have a group of people and you want everybody to draw a card and, and speak about that. So now you have like a dynamic in a group that people can reflect and share stories.

[00:40:13] Ed Watters: Yeah, I think that's unique, uh, when, when you have these books that people can work through with questions, and graphs, and all of that. And you are on your way to putting this together just with your books and what you're doing out there, speaking engagements. Because they're listening even though we may not think they're listening. That, your words are shattering the paradigms that were built. And this is important and we, we have to go back and reflect.

[00:40:56] I, I remember the hardness of my early life. I was very disappointed and angry at my mother and my father for, you know, the behaviors and not teaching me how to love and respect the way I think they probably should have as parents. Alcohol, and addiction, and fighting, arguments, all of this can shatter young people and they learn differently. And I think these cards are unique because it gives them a hands on approach to possibly work back and forth with their partner to, you know, address these without having to bring the soreness about this topic up. Well, it's a card. We're just talking about a card, you know? So I think that's, it, yeah, it, it shifts the [00:42:00] paradigm.

[00:42:01] Wanda Webster: It's a conversation starter.

[00:42:04] Christopher Mack: But, but, but mainly the card is for the individual so that they can become accustomed to reflecting. The one thing that we're missing in our society as a whole is introspection and reflection, it's not a common practice. And so when we learn how to do this introspection and reflection in, in, in, in, in, in a neutral point, you know, the engine's on but the car is in neutral.

[00:42:37] And sometimes the car has to be in neutral in order for you to get the message, to be present for the event. This reflection and this introspection helps you to be, be aware that there is something else inside of you going on. That there is this other beauty that, like you, like we say, that, that, that, that information that comes from the source of life that's directing and guiding.

[00:43:03] Now you can have this interaction with the intelligence. Because you don't miss out being present for the event because you're doing this reflection. So the cards are basically there to help the individual to learn how to do more reflection and introspection in this life. The question becomes the flashlight to the, I mean, the dark halls of my mind. That's, that's it. Because it gives you that, uh, uh, ability, and it gives you that awareness, and now you begin to get that skill. Now you're on your own, you can do this for yourself. And it starts manifesting in different ways.

[00:43:39] Ed Watters: That's a baby step way out, it's, it's a good approach. Uh, I know our time is coming to an end here, I could talk to you all day, all week, because this is good stuff. And I think it's important for people. Have we missed anything that's vital to our conversation today that people need to hear?

[00:44:02] Wanda Webster: Only, only that, uh, our book also addresses how to heal trauma. And there are a number of ways to heal the trauma. Uh, you just want to reprocess the event, and journaling helps, but EFT is what we use. Now we, this is from our experience, this works. Because we were in a terrible car accident, somebody ran a red light going sixty miles an hour, we had PTSD. So we went to EMDR, which is, uh, eye movement, uh, I forget, EMDR,

[00:44:32] same premise. But there, we, we teach people how to do EFT, which is that tapping while you're, uh, feeling the event and then you replace it. So we also have a saying, you must feel it to heal it, okay? Again, most people don't want to go there. They don't want to relive it, but it gives you such a freedom when you do it. So you got to go to the root cause [00:45:00] of addiction, the root cause of the pain to heal it. And that's what, you know, we do. Of course, there's other things, maybe hypnosis or whatever, but journaling, meditation, EFT, brilliant for healing trauma.

[00:45:14] Christopher Mack: And people don't realize how much in bondage they are to self in addiction. And that's really the basis is the selfish self centered self seeking of addiction itself. But then you, you have to say, what, what is the, what is that thing that happens? You know, you sell medicine, it has side effects. What is the true essence of being, you know, liberated from addiction is a new found freedom, new found happiness, new found joy. All of this is new because now it's occurring within you and it gets a chance to spring up in you every day.

[00:45:58] Ed Watters: That, that's power right there. That's a good way to, you know, strike the end of a podcast. You know, we, we really need encouragement. This is wise words and, uh, helping people is great. people helping people, that's what it's truly about. And whatever comes from that, let the ether make it happen. I really enjoy what you are doing, could you please share how people can get ahold of you and reach out and get involved with what you're doing currently?

[00:46:38] Wanda Webster: Well, I think the easiest way is go to the website dynamicsofrecovery.com. You can buy the books there, you can see what we're up to. Uh, I'll give a shout out to this, uh, uh, healing, uh, what do we call it? Retreat in Columbia, it's called Calling in Love. If anybody wants to research that, if they're called to that, If they think that that could give them, uh, some relief. Um, but just go to our website, you know, our contact information is there, they can reach out. Better than me giving you all the different, you know, ways to contact us. Just dynamicsofrecovery.com. I'll make it simple.

[00:47:16] Christopher Mack: You're going to like this one.

[00:47:18] Wanda Webster: Okay.

[00:47:18] Christopher Mack: This is good. And our number is not on the, the, the, the bar room toilet wall.

[00:47:33] Wanda Webster: Not yet.

[00:47:40] Ed Watters: Okay, composure lost. Yeah. Well that's a good thing nowadays. Yeah. Yeah. Now before we go, do you have final thoughts, [00:48:00] a call to action for our listeners today?

[00:48:08] Christopher Mack: Easy does it, be kind, be gentle to yourself. And if you can't find that, just say, I like myself today. And do that every day, I like myself today. It's the positive affirmations that we start to use that becomes the detergent and the agent within ourselves. And so say something good to yourself each day and, uh, you'll be amazed what happens after that.

[00:48:39] Wanda Webster: I like that.

[00:48:42] Ed Watters: Wanda, would you like to add anything?

[00:48:44] Wanda Webster: Uh, just to be kind and gentle with yourself. I think we, we, we sometimes just expect so much of ourselves. And this perfection, at least maybe I'm speaking about myself, but it's just, be kind to yourself. You know, uh, some days are good days and some days just don't go very well, you know, with your best intention. So, you know, uh, just do the best that you can and stop beating yourself up.

[00:49:15] Ed Watters: It's been a delight having you and it's power when you communicate like this. So thank you for sharing your story here on the Dead America Podcast today.

[00:49:26] Wanda Webster: Thank you, Ed. We'd love to come back anytime so just let us know.

[00:49:30] Christopher Mack: We enjoyed hanging out with you.

[00:49:32] Wanda Webster: Yes. Thank you.

[00:49:34] Ed Watters: All right.

[00:49:38] Thank you for joining us today. If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way, please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another great episode of Dead America Podcast. I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you may be.