Shannon Petrovich Struggling With Toxic Relationships

Shannon Petrovich

[00:00:00] Shannon Petrovich: And so a lot of times it's hard to suss this out in the beginning because, um, narcissistic people tend to love bomb you in the beginning. And so when you're being love bombed, you don't know if you're being loved or love bombed. But one of the indicators is if you take a step back or if you express your own wants, needs, thoughts, feelings, and they don't line up with that person, do they respect you?

[00:00:25] Do they honor you? Or do they get miffed and porked out and want to control you and manipulate you into doing what they wanted you to do to begin with? And if that's the case, then you can recognize that you're being love bombed and not loved. Because someone who loves you is intrigued with you and interested in what you do think, feel, want, need, and they're not just into love bombing you in order to create a sense of control and manipulation in a relationship.

[00:00:57] So there are lots of different things that you can do. You can step back a little bit, you can take a breath and see how they react. Also take your time, you know, it's really important to get to know somebody really, really well for a long period of time. Because you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time.

[00:01:16] So the more time you spend with somebody, the more you get a chance to see what happens when they get mad. What happens when they're disappointed? What happens when things don't go their way? Or when they feel hurt, or their ego gets bruised. And people will show you their true colors when those things happen to them.

[00:01:34] And then you get to see, are they, are they selfish? Are they bitter? Are they easily angered? Are they really reactive? Are they kind of immature in how they react emotionally? Or are they mature and are they able to sort of forgive and move on? Are they capable of, of being hurt and not acting out and lashing out in anger? Um, all those kinds of things really matter when it comes to the relationships.

[00:02:09] Ed Watters: To overcome, you must educate. Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn. We are all Dead America, we can all learn something. To learn, we must challenge what we already understand. The way we do that is through conversation. Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best conversations happen with ourself. Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something right now.

[00:03:00] Today we're speaking with Shannon Petrovich. Shannon is a therapist, she's an author, and also a YouTube creator with a lot of YouTube content, great content. Her book, newly out, Out of the Fog, Into the Clear, journaling to help you heal from toxic relationships. Shannon, could you please introduce yourself a little bit and tell people a little bit about you, please?

[00:03:29] Shannon Petrovich: Thanks, Ed, I'm glad to be here. I appreciate you having me on. Um, like you said, I'm a therapist primarily and also about four years ago I got into YouTube creation just to help share some of the insights, perspectives, and information I've gained over the years about all kinds of things mental health related. And it seemed like people were really watching YouTube and there were so many millions of people in the world that were really unable to access mental health information.

[00:04:02] So I got into YouTube creation and, and over the course of the four years, the focus really became on toxic relationships. Especially narcissistic and other abusive relationships. And so many people were really baffled by these things and really wanted to hear more content about those kinds of things.

[00:04:20] So that became my focus, just to help others who were really confused about that kind of thing. And, and, um, and then over the next couple of years, it seemed like I didn't have enough, um, time to really do it justice and that's what spurred me to, to create the book. I just published it in May.

[00:04:44] Ed Watters: Yeah, it's, it's good content. I, I enjoy what you've been doing there. Uh, we need a lot more information out about topics like this. In our world today, it seems like we're filled with that narcissistic mentality. It's fed deeply by our social media and how we interact with each other anymore. There's really a lot of this, uh, false living on YouTube and, uh, Facebook and all of these. We put out a false front on these things because we never show the real meaning behind life, which is the dreaded, oh my, we're here.

[00:05:34] So what, what got you into creating the content besides the need for the content? Is this something that you've been doing all your life? Like a need for, I know I have a hunger for just knowing who people are. I, I like to study people, it's, it's just a urge that I have. Is that what this is about for you?

[00:06:09] Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, that's a, that's really well put, Ed. You know, I think that as I was growing up, I wanted to be a doctor or a veterinarian. But then in my young adulthood, I really had a craving like you to understand what makes people tick and what makes people, um, healthy in relationships and also really unhealthy in relationships. And, and how we can do better in our relationships and how we can spot those ones that are just meaning to do us harm in relationships.

[00:06:40] So those have been fascinations for me. I worked in the domestic violence area in my early career. And, um, was, was baffled by how oftentimes a woman would come out, and it was primarily women we were working with, would come out of an abusive relationship and then not see, um, the abuser that she was going into a new relationship with.

[00:07:05] And I was really wanting to help people to understand better about why we choose, how we choose, and, and to develop healthier creep o meters, is what I call them. So that we can, you know, men and women, um, go into really toxic relationships and how do we, how do we end up back in a relationship that seems so different than the last one and ended up being

[00:07:30] way too similar? So that's been a fascination of mine as well. And I think as I figured that out over the years, I really wanted to share it with more people than just one hour, one person at a time. And, and hence the, the advent of going on to YouTube. And then, like I said, just really needing to deepen that.

[00:07:51] So writing the book to, to help people actually deal with and actually heal from, because in a ten minute video, you can really gain some insights and you can sure feel like, oh man, I'm not alone. There are definitely other people, you know, tens of thousands of people who have clicked on this one video so I must not be alone and that's a wonderful thing. But then how do you actually deal with and heal from those relationships and not keep falling into similar ones after that?

[00:08:25] Ed Watters: Yeah, I think with the advent of the computer age and the internet, I think people are connecting more and finding those dots that need to connect in order to heal these negative relationships, the bonds that we've created out of generational curses, generational bonds. And not knowing really how to navigate through all of it. And it's easier to get mad and just say, I'm not dealing with it, or, you know, deal with it in negative ways. Let's start here. Uh, toxic relationship. What is a toxic relationship and how do you know if it is a toxic relationship or not?

[00:09:17] Shannon Petrovich: That's a great place to start, Ed, thanks. Um, I, I believe that one of the most important things to recognize is that most people are kind of wired more towards being empathic, compassionate, interested in other people, wanting to help other people, wanting to be there for other people, and wanting to be in relationship.

[00:09:37] Or they're wired to be fairly self centered and superficial and all about what they can get from a relationship and not about what they can give. And so a lot of times it's hard to suss this out in the beginning because, um, narcissistic people tend to love bomb you in the beginning. And so when you're being [00:10:00] love bombed, you don't know if you're being loved or love bombed.

[00:10:03] But one of the indicators is if you take a step back or if you express your own wants, needs, thoughts, feelings, and they don't line up with that person, do they respect you? Do they honor you? Or do they get miffed and porked out and want to control you and manipulate you into doing what they wanted you to do to begin with?

[00:10:26] And if that's the case, then you can recognize that you're being love bombed and not loved. Because someone who loves you is intrigued with you and interested in what you do think, feel, want, need. And they're not just into love bombing you in order to create a sense of control and manipulation in a relationship.

[00:10:47] So there are lots of different things that you can do. You can step back a little bit, you can take a breath and see how they react. Also take your time, you know, it's really important to get to know somebody really, really well for a long period of time. Because you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time.

[00:11:06] So the more time you spend with somebody, the more you get a chance to see what happens when they get mad. What happens when they're disappointed? What happens when things don't go their way? Or when they feel hurt? Or their ego gets bruised? And people will show you their true colors when those things happen to them.

[00:11:24] And then you get to see, are they, are they selfish? Are they bitter? Are they easily angered? Are they really reactive? Are they kind of immature in how they react emotionally? Or are they mature and are they able to sort of forgive and move on? Are they capable of being hurt and not acting out and lashing out in anger?

[00:11:48] Um, all those kinds of things really matter when it comes to relationships. It's also true that If you are that empathic, compassionate person, you are a prime target for someone who's very self centered and is all about themselves. It's almost like a, a, um, symbiotic fit that's not good for you but, um, it's very good for the other person.

[00:12:12] So you have to recognize that somebody who is narcissistic very much wants to connect with you and you have to know yourself well enough to, um, hold your boundaries and not get sucked into something that can be really self destructive.

[00:12:30] Ed Watters: Yeah. When we talk about narcissistic people, there's different levels or different types of narcissism and they can affect you in different ways. Can you talk to people a little bit about that?

[00:12:45] Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, that's so true. And there are sort of, the two different styles are overt or covert. So the overt is more the bombastic, bullying, arrogant, sort of out there in your face kind of, um, narcissist. And then the covert is no less dangerous, but it's sort of more subtle and more behind the scenes and they will be your best friend to your face and they will be stabbing you in the back

[00:13:11] behind your back. And they will be extremely manipulative, they oftentimes manipulate others to beat you up emotionally. Um, in addition to their own, uh, manipulation control, they can even, um, I did a recent video called the martyr narcissist. And I think this is really important to recognize when somebody is attacking you from a victim place, that's so confusing when you first get that.

[00:13:40] You, you feel guilty and attacked at the same time, and that's a mess, you know, and it's really confusing if you don't see it coming or recognize it for what it is. But that's a type of covert narcissism where they're trying to control and manipulate you by making you feel guilty and attacking you at the same time.

[00:14:01] So it's extremely, extremely difficult to assess. And, and there's also a broad range for everything from very mild to extremely sociopathic. And so in the milder range, some people may actually have a little bit of insight and maybe some willingness to hear your boundaries and respect boundaries and maybe even grow in relationship.

[00:14:25] Whereas in the moderate to severe range, there's no insight and there's no ability to take any kind of responsibility or accountability for their behavior. And there's, you know, and especially in the severe range, there's no concern at all for your wellbeing. And they can be extremely abusive, um, and hurtful, and mean, and, and directly willing and able to hurt you at the deepest level. So there's a broad range of, of the narcissism as well.

[00:15:02] Ed Watters: So with your work, there's, there's different types of relationships also. You have work relationships, you have family relationships, you have, uh, public relationships where, you know, you have to deal with public officials at the post office, the DMV, all of these are relationships. And we, we find different levels of narcissistic types in all of those areas of our life.

[00:15:37] It seems like we're, uh, just bombarded with it. And yet there are those empathists still that really take the time to care and understand and try to teach the value. Is there any hope for a narcissistic person? Can they change their values, their ways? And if so, how is that possible to do that?

[00:16:08] Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, I think that's a really great question too. We need to recognize that they come in all shapes and sizes and, and like I said, severities. But also, you know, for a lot of people, one of, one of the videos that's been getting tons of airtime recently is When Your Son or Daughter is a Narcissist. And so there are a lot of, um, you know, older adults who have narcissistic sons and daughters who are really difficult. Can be verbally or even physically abusive and then hold the grandchildren kind of hostage

[00:16:44] and not allow you to see your grandkids if you're not towing the line and doing what they want you to do and under their control and manipulation. So that's a really toxic relationship that's very baffling for a lot of people. Also parents, you know, for a young adult to have a parent who's a narcissist is really painful because you've grown up without that unconditional love. You've grown up with

[00:17:10] love that was based on whether you were adoring them at the time, or whether you were bringing them accolades at the time, or whether you were looking like a failure, which is not acceptable for that perfectionistic, narcissistic parent who only wants you around if you're bringing them adoration. So there are a lot of different types of relationships, like you said, and even in the work place. But in the milder to sometimes mild/ moderate, um, degree,

[00:17:38] yes, some people can change. And the way to assess that is by creating and holding boundaries with a person. And that, uh, you know, a lot of people will say immediately boundaries don't work. Well, that's not true, boundaries do work. And they work either by creating a sense of how I exist in this relationship.

[00:18:01] So if I, um, struggling with somebody, um, then I will set that boundary. Like if you are speaking to me that way on the phone, I'm going to hang up and we can try again later when you've calmed down. Or I'm going to leave now because I don't want to be treated this way, but we can talk about it again later.

[00:18:19] So that's a boundary and sort of a timeout, I call it a grownup timeout. So you're giving them a timeout by you're removing your attention from them. And I've seen lots and lots of people who, um, have had that kind of relationship, they've set boundaries and the other person has actually learned to respect their boundaries. Doesn't happen immediately,

[00:18:41] maybe it happens the second or third time out. But they start to understand or can't treat that person that way anymore because they just won't let me and they remove themselves and then I don't get what I want anyway, so I might as well stop this. So sometimes that does work. The other way a boundary might work is that you've set that boundary and then that person freaks out on you and escalates their behavior.

[00:19:06] So the boundary worked because it gave you the information that this person is not, not going to ever respect your boundaries and you've got to save yourself and get out. Because they are not capable of change and they are not capable or interested in you or your boundaries or your personhood.

[00:19:26] So we have to recognize that a lot of times we're engaging in what I call the three P's. People pleasing, placating, and peacekeeping. And when we're doing that, we're actually undermining ourselves completely. So we're, we're putting ourselves out there constantly to serve that person, to blow up and puff up that ego,

[00:19:47] that empty shell. And the more we do that, the more we're undermining our own truths. And when we don't hold on to our own truths, then they have no potential to grow and there's no [00:20:00] potential for that relationship to either sink or swim. So we have to stop doing the three P's and we have to engage in boundaries. And then we have to see what happens.

[00:20:10] Ed Watters: So there's a level of emotional intelligence involved here where the, the individual that might be doing these things might be stuck in a certain period or time and just doesn't really understand how to handle themselves, especially. So is this what makes people have outbursts like that?

[00:20:43] Shannon Petrovich: It is, it's an emotional immaturity for sure. Somebody who doesn't handle the regular ups and downs of life without just basically having a tantrum. And a lot of times people don't, when, when a person recognizes that they're, that that narcissistic behavior is really kind of a grown up tantrum. And when you see it that way and you emotionally separate yourself from it and step back for a bit, you can see that that is just tantruming behavior and you wouldn't,

[00:21:15] um, you know, give a lollipop to a five year old that was tantruming in the grocery store. And so you need to not reward that kind of behavior from a grown up either. And oftentimes that placating behavior, that peacekeeping behavior is rewarding that behavior. And then that person keeps doing it over and over and getting worse and worse rather than better and better.

[00:21:40] And so, in a sense, I'm not blaming the victim by any stretch, obviously, but, but we are responsible for telling our truth and saying our truth in love and owning our own boundaries and then seeing if we can exist as a whole person in that relationship or not. Um, now, obviously, strategically, if you're in danger, placating and peacekeeping are the ways that you're going to survive until you can make your way out.

[00:22:10] And so you strategically may have to use those strategies. But if you are trying to make this relationship better, the only way to make it better is by setting boundaries by knowing your own thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs, and by establishing those again. And stopping the placating and peacekeeping, so that you can see whether there's any potential here or not.

[00:22:35] Ed Watters: So is narcissism a learned behavior, or is it a born with behavior?

[00:22:46] Shannon Petrovich: There's a lot of complexity around that, and there's a lot of conflict around it, too. And so I think in general, most people believe that it's both. So that there is a predisposition for, um, that sort of more self centered, more, um less compassionate, less empathic person. They seem to be generally wired that way to some degree, and there can also be a degree of learned behavior. So we often see that someone who grows up with two parents who are in that sort of abusive relationship, they may identify with, you know, I don't want to be the power under, so I want to be the power over. So they identify with the abuser and they become more like them and their behavior reflects more like the abusive person, so that can be, um, learned. But typically you will see that some kids in a family, you know, in that same family, if you have three kids, then you're going to have maybe one that turns out narcissistic, the other two are very empathic and might be set up to hook up with a narcissist because they've played those placating roles in childhood. And that sort of in an unconscious way resonates for them that they felt sort of a sense of meaning and purpose in being the peacekeeper in the family. And then they tend to be set up to hook up with somebody who is more like that abusive parent.

[00:24:24] Ed Watters: That's interesting. In your work, do you find that there's more narcissistic people coming out of a multi member family instead of having the only child, their siblings are multiple and the more children the family has, is there more narcissistic behavior out of that sort of family?

[00:24:55] Shannon Petrovich: I don't know. I, I don't know that I've noticed that, that's an interesting question. I, um, I think that, you know, when they're, there are usually different roles that different kids will play in a family. Um, and we talk about dysfunctional families and that's kind of, too much of a buzzword. But the way, the way we can actually conceive of that differently is to say that a family where the focus was not just on raising kids, but the family, where the focus might have been on abusive behavior, or addiction, or, um, or conflict or rage, or, you know, where there was any kind of focus on other than raising kids and loving on the kids and helping them become

[00:25:43] good adults. Um, so when, when there's dysfunction in any of those ways, we find that different kids will line up into different roles. So there might be sort of that hero child who tries to be really, really perfect in order to take the focus off of, um, the dysfunction. And then there's usually the last child who thinks subconsciously again, that if I fade into the woodwork, um, I'm safe.

[00:26:14] And then there might be the, the sort of the scapegoat or the clown who thinks, Well, if I entertain everybody and keep everybody guessing and, and kind of entertained with my wildness, then that creates distraction from all the, this conflict and, and rage. So, kids do tend to line up in one of those roles.

[00:26:36] And the more dysfunctional and chaotic the family, the more rigid those roles can be. Because sometimes you'll see that those are fluid, um, where when one kid, you know, grows up and leaves the household then another kid will step into a scapegoat role or into a hero role. So it, those, those can be fluid or they can be very rigid.

[00:26:59] Ed Watters: That's very interesting. So what is the meaning behind your book and why, why did you make it about journaling?

[00:27:15] Shannon Petrovich: Well, I think that, um, first of all, the meaning behind it, I, I really relate to the fog of, um, of an abusive relationship that you, when you get lost in that, it's extremely hard to see your way out and to see your way clear. And so when we think about the fog, the fear, obligation and guilt that you get sucked into, it's extremely, it's like ocean fog where it's so thick and so disorienting that you feel really kind of paralyzed by it. So when we talk about getting out into the clear and sailing clear of that fog, you really have to get a sense of reality.

[00:28:00] So it's really important that you recognize that there are your emotions involved and your emotions can be totally attached to this person. And it feels like love because our culture doesn't really understand love at all anyway. But we

[00:28:15] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:28:16] Shannon Petrovich: feel, you know, we can be trauma bonded to that person and we think it's love. And, um, so we can think that we still love that person. So we have to keep trying and we have all these judgments on ourselves, all these obligations, all this guilt, because that person is always going to tell you it's your fault. Every conflict that you have is, um, is your fault. So that guilt is very profound.

[00:28:42] And then when you think about the, that ocean fog, you have to look at those facts. This person hurt me, this person devalues me, they make me feel good just to trash me again. Um, they have separated me from and isolated me from my people so that I don't have a good sense of what's what and where my reality is.

[00:29:06] So all of those things are, are the facts. So my emotions might still be really sucked into this person, but if I can line up the facts, then that's kind of like the green lines on a radar screen where you can say, Okay, there's the channel. I need to trust these facts and get out and get past and get clear of this fog.

[00:29:25] And then I can rebuild my sense of self, rebuild my sense of connectedness and rebuild my life. So those are the really important parts of, of, of working through that. And journaling, you know, I packed it with all these journaling prompts, but some people don't like to journal. And so you can use that to just think through those questions and think through how that has worked in your own life and think through, you know, how to get clear by working through those things.

[00:29:56] Or you can journal it out because that's a really [00:30:00] powerful tool where if you write out all those facts, then they can't kind of escape you again. Um, we tend to fall back into denial and fall back into thinking we can change that person or we can, uh, somehow, uh, do things differently so that they don't blow up again or whatever. Um, when you line up those facts and you write them out, then you're not as likely to fall into those old stories again.

[00:30:27] Ed Watters: Yeah, I like the journaling prompt aspect of that. Right now, my wife and I, we're working through a book, Drive Your Own Darn Bus by Julia Christina. It's fabulous, I love it. It really gets to the point and it makes you journal through it. So it's kind of like a workbook along with an informational dialogue book and it's, it's a great way to learn. And actually to go back and see how you've progressed since you journaled that little bit of information, so I really enjoy that. Uh, what, what type of people should be getting this book?

[00:31:18] Shannon Petrovich: You know, I, I wrote it to be very broad. And even though there are some parts of it that are more focused on a partner relationship, it really is for anybody who has struggled with toxic relationships. Whether you grew up with parents who were that way, um, even a sibling, a work colleague, um, a partner, like we've said, or you have an adult child that is, is like this. Because it helps you to separate out the wise mind from the emotional mind that's still attached and still feels

[00:31:51] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:31:51] Shannon Petrovich: guilty and still feels hooked in and that's a really crucial piece. We also have to start by looking at the toxic relationship you have within yourself. Because if you're still torturing yourself with, I'm so stupid, how did I let this happen? Why can't I get this right? You know, that is, um, 40, 000 times a day, you giving yourself these negative, devaluing, uh, self condemning messages. And you can't get clear of another relationship until you start to become your own best friend, start to support yourself, encourage yourself and move yourself forward instead of deriding yourself and degrading yourself every time you have a frustration or a hard time or you make a mistake.

[00:32:39] You know, if you make a mistake, if your friend made a mistake, you would say, Oh, you got this, it's okay. You know, we'll work it through, blah, blah, blah. But if you say to yourself, Oh, you're such an idiot. And, you know, and it gets a lot more toxic than that for most people inside their own heads. And when you hear that and recognize how much you're discouraging yourself throughout every day, that's the place to start. And that's where I start in my book, the first bunch of journal prompts are all about how you talk to yourself inside your own mind and how to get free of that internal critic.

[00:33:15] Ed Watters: Yeah, that's huge. You know, it really can keep us imprisoned. So if, if we are stuck, sometimes it's very hard to reach out for help. And identifying what's going on in our life is very difficult. What's the best way for people to actually reach out when they feel stuck or even more so if they're in a toxic relationship and they're bound to this relationship in a toxic way and they can't escape. How, how can they find help? What's the best avenue of approach to break away from that to find and seek help?

[00:34:09] Shannon Petrovich: There are a lot of, um, resources out there in terms of, of hotlines and warm lines, and domestic violence, um, uh, information and shelters, and different things like that. So Google is always a good place to start if you have that ability. And also, um, you know, the, the YouTube channel that I started is primarily to make people not feel alone and people chime in from all over the world. I do live streams every other Sunday afternoon to just kind of hold space for people. And it's a Q and A, uh, very conversational, um, format, very casual. And people, let's see, last weekend, were there from Malaysia, Germany, um, Scotland, somewhere else in the UK, all over, uh, Serbia, all over the U.S.

[00:35:10] And so they're, they're coming in from all over the world. And, and my, my mission really is so that people won't feel alone. Because I think we can, we can find our way through a lot of things if we don't feel alone. Because that's when despair, uh, sets in and that's when we feel hopeless and helpless.

[00:35:30] And that hopeless and helpless feeling is, is what sinks our ship. We have to recognize that there is always, uh, there are always other people out there, whether it's just on a YouTube channel or, or by walking through it with a therapist, if you have the ability to get one. But also many times people have isolated, been isolated from their friends and family in the process of this toxic relationship unfolding.

[00:35:59] And we often are, are ashamed to go back to them and say, Hey, I made a mistake and I really want to reconnect. But those people are there for you and you have to reach back out and see if they're not there for you because those are your people. And even though you've been separated off, they're usually very warm and welcoming and they're thrilled to have you back.

[00:36:21] So always start where you, where you left off and see if you can't build from there. And sometimes in the rebuilding of your life after you've gotten free, you need to start fresh because sometimes you do lose your people. Sometimes that person has manipulated all your friends and family away from you and that's really tragic. But you can volunteer somewhere that, something that you're passionate about,

[00:36:48] you can connect to other people online in different forums, and there are tons of Facebook groups. And there are just so many people out there that are going through these kinds of things that, you know, the most important thing is to recognize that hopelessness and helplessness are feelings, but they're not fact. You do have hope and you do have help. And so don't get lost in those feelings, recognize the facts.

[00:37:18] Ed Watters: Yeah. I think that's huge because when you're stuck, you feel like there is nothing, there, there's nothing better than what you already have. And it's, I, I find it odd that our brain tells us that. But there is always, you're never going to be in the same relationship but you might find yourself in a better relationship, so it's a gamble always. But being stuck is never the answer. I just don't see anyone being stuck, a good, a good outcome on that.

[00:38:02] Shannon Petrovich: Right.

[00:38:02] Ed Watters: So, your, your book, it was written for helping the masses come out of this, you know, fog. Do you have any other books on the shelf waiting to be published?

[00:38:21] Shannon Petrovich: This one was a lot of work already so I'm not, not looking to get back into writing right away. Although I didn't think I would do this one. So you just never know where, you know, the spirit will lead you and where you feel inspired to do something. And, and when it, when it kind of hit me that I wanted to do it, it was sort of an internal drive that just, spurred me all the way through to the finish line. And, and then self publishing, which is a really fun process anyway.

[00:38:53] So now I, I'm, I want to keep the, the YouTube stuff alive and I want to do more podcasting because I'm meeting amazing hosts from all over the world and, and able to, to connect with people from all over the world in that way. And that's really exciting for me, I'm just having a blast doing that.

[00:39:15] Ed Watters: Yeah, you do it well. You present and broadcast very well. You are a natural podcaster,

[00:39:23] Shannon Petrovich: Thank you.

[00:39:24] Ed Watters: you should really think about starting your own podcast. I always like to boast that, push the podcast. So we do, we need people out there. Even if you're just guesting and bringing this information forward to the public, it's a relief to so many to watch that we are not alone.

[00:39:51] Shannon Petrovich: Right.

[00:39:51] Ed Watters: And like you stated, that's the biggest key out of everything. We're not alone. Reach out and find [00:40:00] some help, it's needed.

[00:40:02] Shannon Petrovich: Yeah.

[00:40:03] Ed Watters: So do you have a call to action for our listeners today?

[00:40:07] Shannon Petrovich: Sure. Um, the Therapist Talks, uh, YouTube channel is there for you and, uh, the book. I've kept it super affordable so anybody who wants a copy should be able to grab one off the Amazon shelf, virtual shelf. Um, my website is nofoggydays.com or if you hit therapisttalks.com, you'll get there as well. And that has the connection to my blogs, uh, I have blog articles. Um, and all of my videos you can tap into from there and to the link to the Amazon book. So all of that is, uh, where you can find some help.

[00:40:54] Ed Watters: And, and the best way to connect with you would be?

[00:40:59] Shannon Petrovich: Uh, nofoggydays.com. There's a newsletter, you can email, uh, get on my email list and, and you can ask questions, um, in any of my videos and I will answer them or I will bring them forward to the next live stream, which is every other Sunday at 2 PM Pacific Coast time. So jump in on those if you have a question and I love answering those. Like I said, it's a very conversational, very casual Q& A for about an hour every other Sunday.

[00:41:35] Ed Watters: Well, Shannon, you are a fascinating person doing great things out there. I want to say thank you for that and for being part of the Dead America Podcast.

[00:41:47] Shannon Petrovich: Well, thank you so much, Ed. I've really enjoyed our conversation and I love that you are getting these important topics out there to the world.

[00:41:58] Ed Watters: Thank you for joining us today. If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way, please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another great episode of Dead America Podcast. I'm Ed Watters your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you may be.

Links

 Shannon helps women heal from narcissistic or other toxic relationships so they can Release all the hurt and pain, Regain your strength and clarity Help your children heal, and Choose a better partner in the future

Masterclass/group coaching program https://www.healfromtoxicrelationships.com/info

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