Angela Myer Understanding Narcissistic Abuse

Angela Myer Understanding Narcissistic Abuse

Understanding Narcissis

Angela Myer, a clinical certified hypnotherapist with over twenty years of experience, shed light on the difficult topic of narcissism during a conversation with Ed Watters. Throughout her career, Angela has helped people around the world navigate various aspects of mental health, focusing particularly on the polarity of human beings.

Narcissism, as Angela explains, is rampant. From bosses to coworkers, teachers to students, scammers to family members, narcissistic personalities are an inevitable part of life. Angela asserts the need for greater awareness, education, and equipping individuals with the necessary tools to detect narcissism in order not to get victimized or blindsided.

The Art of Conversation

Watters and Myer agree on the importance of conversation in making sense of the world and the experiences we face, including dealing with narcissistic individuals. The duo emphasizes that some of the best conversations happen with oneself. It’s in these moments of introspection that we can challenge what we understand, redefine our perspectives, and in some instances, transform personal trauma into a tool for self-empowerment and education.

Understanding Narcissism

The conversation deepens with the introduction of the concept of trauma bonding, the act of remaining in a harmful relationship due to potent attachment bonds. These attachments often stem from coercive and manipulative tactics employed by narcissistic individuals, making it incredibly challenging for victims to leave.

Impact on Mental Health

Narcissism affects mental health, creating a vortex that includes other mental health issues like autism, mental health disorders, and trauma. Angela uses an inverted triangle as a metaphor to explain the variance in societal acceptance of these aspects of mental health. While autism and mental health disorders have gained acceptance over time, trauma and narcissism remain largely rejected and misunderstood.

Angela notes that one needs to overcome by education—educate oneself and others, challenging what one already understands. Encouraging conversations around the taboo subjects will help demystify the facets, will reduce fear and confusion, and promote clarity. Ultimately, the onus falls on our shoulders to educate ourselves and promote conversations around these misunderstood and marginalized facets of mental health.

Hope for the Future

Angela shares that educating young minds before they encounter such characters in their life is critical. Understanding that conformity to such behavior patterns is not normal but rather learned behaviors can help prevent many cases of abuse. With the holidays approaching, now is the perfect time to start conversations within our circles. The more we talk about narcissism, the less power we give to the narcissists in our lives.

Despite the dark experiences one may have endured due to narcissistic abuse, Angela’s message rings with an undeniable tone of hope. She sees education as a strong weapon to combat the menacing face of narcissism. Her mission is to shed light on the dark corners of our society where narcissists often hide while providing support and resources to those grappling with this reality.


Narcissism, like any other mental health condition, warrants our attention and understanding. Knowledge, self-awareness, and comprehension of our interactions with others are the first steps towards standing up against narcissistic abuse. Through awareness, education, and setting healthy boundaries, we can ensure our mental wellness and the wellness of those around us.

Show notes

Understanding and Addressing Narcissistic Behaviour: A Conversation with Angela Myer

The podcast hosts Angela Myer, an author, podcaster, and certified hypnotherapist specializes in dealing with narcissism and trauma. Throughout the episode, Angela shares her personal experiences and insights about living with and healing from narcissistic abuse. She further talks about the importance of education in understanding and dealing with narcissistic personalities. Angela discusses how certain traumatic experiences and upbringing can lead to the formation of narcissism, highlighting that narcissists can change given the right conditions and constant work. She further preaches the significance of setting healthy boundaries and paying attention to physical, verbal, and mental signs of narcissistic tendencies.

00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdote

00:26 Understanding Mental Health and Trauma

01:13 Importance of Education and Conversation

02:05 Guest Introduction: Angela Myer

02:28 Angela's Background and Work

03:20 Understanding Narcissism and Trauma

06:22 The Impact of Narcissism on Society

08:34 Understanding Attachment Styles

11:01 The Impact of Narcissism on Relationships

14:22 Angela's Personal Experience with Narcissism

16:40 The Impact of Narcissism on Children

32:06 The Process of Writing a Book on Narcissism

34:02 The Aftermath and Recovery from Narcissistic Abuse

45:08 Understanding the Impact of Modeled Behaviors

45:28 Addressing Past Traumas in Relationships

46:26 Exploring Core Wounds and Self-Blame

46:52 The Struggle with People Pleasing and OverGiving

47:21 Recognizing Manipulative Tactics

49:38 Learning to Decode Narcissistic Behaviors

50:58 The Importance of Setting Healthy Boundaries

52:23 Dealing with Narcissistic Bosses and Coworkers

55:50 Understanding the Impact of Narcissistic Behaviors

58:00 The Power of Self-Awareness and Identifying Trigger Points

01:00:20 The Role of Education in Dealing with Narcissistic Behaviors

01:03:15 The Importance of Setting Boundaries in Work Environments

01:04:21 The Journey of Changing Narcissistic Behaviors

01:08:55 The Importance of Paying Attention to Detail

01:12:46 The Call to Action: Educate Yourself

01:16:30 The Importance of Speaking Up and Taking the First Step

01:24:16 Closing Remarks

Angela Myer

[00:00:00] Angela Myer: And I was like, I can't teach this class in a half an hour. I literally can't. And what speaks to me said, Oh no, you can get it done in like eight minutes like that. And I'm like, what? And they said, Yeah, you can. And so for four hours I downloaded all this information. They were like, You're going to draw this triangle

[00:00:20] that's upside down and you're going to split it, you know, in four sections where the top part is. You know, autism, where as a society we have embraced that, you know, as a global society. And then the second one would be mental health where we've embraced that too, you know, we have mental health awareness month. But as the triangle got smaller, the next section was trauma and we reject that. Maybe

[00:00:47] twenty percent or less of the population are trauma informed and we need to be trauma informed. And then the very bottom was narcissism. We reject that as well, we don't want to talk about it. But the key thing is all of those pieces are the whole component of mental health.

[00:01:13] Ed Watters: To overcome, you must educate. Educate not only yourself, but educate anyone seeking to learn. We are all Dead America, we can all learn something. To learn, we must challenge what we already understand. The way we do that is through conversation. Sometimes we have conversations with others, however, some of the best conversations happen with ourself. Reach out and challenge yourself; let's dive in and learn something right now.

[00:02:05] Today we're speaking with Angela Myer. Angela is a clinical certified hypnosis, she is an author and a podcaster. Her book and her podcast has the same name to it, The Undetected Narcissist. Angela, could you please introduce yourself? Let people know just a little more about you, please.

[00:02:28] Angela Myer: Hello, I am Angela Myer and I'm a clinical certified hypnotherapist. I've been doing this for over twenty years. I have been voted the best hypnotherapist for my area for the past twelve consecutive years, which I'm very proud of. I am an author, podcaster, blogger, wellness coach. I work with people all over the globe, all different ages, backgrounds, religions, it doesn't matter. And I'm really focused on educating and informing people right now about the polarity of human beings.

[00:03:06] Because when we grow up, we are taught, you know, good and bad, right and wrong, the do's and don'ts, you know, what animals are safe, what animals, you know, aren't safe, dangerous. But why aren't we really teaching the polarity of human beings? Because as I was saying earlier, Everyone on this planet is going to run into someone that is narcissistic.

[00:03:27] It could be a boss, a coworker, it could be a teacher, um, a student, it could be even a scammer, you know, trying to call you up and scam you out of your money. And then everyone on this planet is going to experience some form of direct or indirect trauma. And the difference between that is, let's say you get in a car accident, that's direct trauma.

[00:03:51] But if I witness the car accident and I'm having nightmares for weeks, that's indirect trauma. So, and then everyone on this planet sometime in their life is going to experience a realm of mental health. And that could be anxiety, depression, it could be severe grief or sadness when a family member dies. And it doesn't mean, you know, it always has to be the crazy stuff. So my philosophy is when these young minds leave the home and they dive into the ocean, you know, of life, they're going to be swimming with sharks and don't you want to give them a life vest, or even a boat, because some are going to swim and some are going to sink. And I am worried about the ones that will sink. Because when you're not educated and informed in these areas and you run into these situations, you can get blindsided, you can get victimized, you can get wounded, you um, you can think the world's a scary place and just shut down and close yourself off.

[00:04:55] And so I want people when they have these scenarios or they encounter these people, you know what to do. You have a choice. Instead of being reactive, you can respond. And so it's all about talking about certain subjects that people consider taboo or, Oh, we just don't talk about that. No, let's talk about it because then it makes it less scary.

[00:05:21] It takes you out of confusion and into clarity. And so that's what, you know, I'm really striving for with, with my podcast, and the blog posts, and, and doing speaking engagements is, is talking about this stuff and shining a light on it. Where it's not, you know, hate, anger and fear. Because if you always have that approach, um, you're going to freak out when you run into those people or those scenarios. And you shouldn't be,

[00:05:51] I mean, you just shouldn't. And I, I have some friends that are narcissistic, but I know how to set healthy boundaries with them. I know how to communicate with them. And if one of them tries to gaslight me, it's, I can be comical now and just be like, Dude, it's not going to work. I know what you're doing. You know, you can try to

[00:06:11] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:06:11] Angela Myer: gaslight me, you can try to, you know, make me, you know, feel bad about this and that. But it's like, Hey,

[00:06:18] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:06:18] Angela Myer: you know, let's be adults here.

[00:06:21] Ed Watters: That's right. Our, our world, Angela is filled with narcissism, like you just stated. And unfortunately it's at the highest level in our world. And, and it's not a party thing, it's everywhere in both sides. It's just fluid, it's like they crept in and we've allowed this to happen. So what you're doing is kind of a good thing, it identifies and puts light on the subject. Because really there's so much out there about narcissism, it's kind of confusing that different people will tell you different things. And

[00:07:08] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[00:07:08] Ed Watters: when you ask for a definition, it's hard to get a clear definition. Even in, even in the psychological field, they, they kind of jargle it. You know, I, I found that the three common narcissistic types is grandiose, basement, and the clinical narcissistic, what? What? Personality disorder. But we allow this to happen and we don't put that light of clarity on understanding what we're doing. Because a lot of the times we don't,

[00:07:50] we don't understand. We're raised in these environments that control who we are and we just feel that it's natural and it's the way it is. Somebody yelling and screaming to get their point across up in your face. And it's like, Hey, all I want is a simple answer, you don't have to get puffy. How do we actually, besides these podcasts, which is a wonderful way to educate people, how do we educate people to just step back and look at themselves a little bit?

[00:08:34] Angela Myer: Well, I just, um, just last week, I posted a podcast about attachment styles. And I talk about, you know, secure attachment, anxious attachment, um, avoidant attachment, and then disorganized attachment. And what's so interesting about it is how we learn these attachment styles is what was modeled to us growing up.

[00:09:03] So for example, a secure attachment would be the, I'm going to use mom as an example, the child, when mom leaves the room, the child will, you know, cry and, you know, out. But then the child, um, feels this safety and security knowing that mom's going to come back. And the child will explore its world, it will play,

[00:09:25] it will have fun. And when mom comes back, the child is happy to see mom. It's joyful, you know, they, they unite together, they connect together, and it's always consistent. Like consistent feeding, consistent, you know, nap time, change time, you know, all that. It's, she's really consistent and reliable and so the child's getting its emotional needs met.

[00:09:49] And what happens is when that child grows up and as adult, they're going to go out to find people that have those similar attachment styles. Because that's what's familiar and that's [00:10:00] what feels safe. But now that's the key thing is, let's say you grow up in a home where you, your parent was not consistent. They were either neglectful, or they were an absent parent, and they didn't meet your needs all the time. And sometimes they would do it and sometimes they wouldn't and so you learn not to really trust them. And that

[00:10:22] not all of your needs are met. So you have this sense of anxiety about you and that's where they say the people that are really clingy and need me, needy, like, I need your validation that you love me. Or I'm worried that I like you more than you like me, you know, they're always anxious and feeling insecure about their relationship.

[00:10:44] And that's an anxious attachment style. But the good news is, your attachment style can change. But then there's bad news also, because let's say a secure person meets an anxious person's attached style. If that secure person still decides to be in that relationship without getting their emotional needs met all the time, um, they will start to mirror some of those unhealthy dysfunctional attachment behaviors.

[00:11:19] And, um, and it's not good. So let's say if two anxious people meet each other and they come together and they learn to trust one another and they learn to communicate with vulnerability, then those two people can change to be more secure with each other. Which is, you know, healthy. The one that concerns me the most, there's two of them,

[00:11:43] it's the, um, avoidant and disorganized. So the avoidant one would be where the mother leaves the room and the child does not cry with distress, the child could care less. The child plays with its toys and stuff, doesn't interact with other kids, it's like they're in their own world. The mom comes back, the child still doesn't care, you know, it's doing its own thing. Because the child has learned that it can't trust the mom, the mom is not going to meet its emotional needs.

[00:12:17] The child has been severely neglected by, you know, a neglectful or absent parent. And, and the, when the child grows up, they are the ones that are going to be cold and disconnected. Those are the ones that do not feel the need to connect with other people because they've learned that other people aren't safe.

[00:12:39] They will not meet their emotional needs. So that relationship will be superficial. They can be risk takers, they, um, they don't care too much about, you know, having relationships or not, and, and those ones are, yes, very, very narcissistic. They, they have the tendency to be. And, um, and I wanted people to kind of get the idea of the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath is, a sociopath does not have guilt. They do not feel guilt. Someone that's narcissistic can feel guilt if

[00:13:15] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:13:16] Angela Myer: they did something, but they'll try to cover it up. But a sociopath, no, no guilt at all, don't feel bad about if they hurt anybody at all. And you can be a sociopath narcissist, you can have, you know, you can have both of those traits. But the real difference is they both lack empathy.

[00:13:38] But a narcissist can experience guilt and can feel bad about, you know, certain things. But they'll, they'll try to cover it up, you know, by doing blame shifting, or undermining, or even, you know, stonewalling, or gaslighting. And when I say those behaviors, the way that I look at it is, when they act out, it's like that inner wounded child comes out and that's why they act sometimes so mature and they say the stupidest things. And you're like, why did you, you know, it's like, Don't you think before you open your mouth? I mean,

[00:14:16] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:14:16] Angela Myer: you know where I'm

[00:14:18] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:14:18] Angela Myer: coming from. And so it's really, it's, it's confusing. And yes, there are different types of narcissists because, I mean, one of the reasons why I wrote my book is I was dealing with a covert narcissist. And that's one of the most dangerous ones there because they are shy, and they are quiet, and they are very passive aggressive.

[00:14:42] They don't need any, a flashy car, or flashy vehicle, or anything like that. So when I was told by a child psychologist, I think your son's father's narcissistic. When I looked up the definition, I was like, No, he's not, you know? He, he's,

[00:15:02] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:15:02] Angela Myer: he's shy, he drives a violet color Kia. I mean, come on, you know, how, that's not very masculine vehicle to drive, but he's, you know, he's, he's got transportation. So I, I dismissed it because it didn't meet the profile. What I should have been told is, No, look up the definitions. Has, you know, do you know what gaslighting means? And I didn't then. Do you know what stonewalling means? Do you know what triangulation, or baiting, or provoking, or undermining? As soon as I learned the definitions, I was like, Holy cow, this is what I've been experiencing.

[00:15:40] And I was clueless, I was so in the dark. And so I do have a podcast about how to decode and detect a narcissist. And I even have it in my book. I teach you how to, um, read legal documents or even emails. Because when I took my own documentation in the book and I highlighted just the key words, like he had to create drama to get this.

[00:16:06] He set me up, you know, I had all that. If you just read what I highlighted in bold, it's staring you right in the face. And nobody saw it, nobody. And, and, and why to me, it's so important is, especially when I talked about the attachment styles is, that's what was modeled to us, really what was modeled to us. And all the therapists that I worked with,

[00:16:38] nobody saw it. Nobody knew about attachment styles, nobody knew about direct trauma or indirect trauma. And here's the, here's the key thing, Ed, is our son's father was able to convince the judge that if our son with autism lived with him, then all his autism behaviors would go away. And everybody believed it. Well, here's the thing, when our son came back to me eight months later, and I've helped him with all this work, he doesn't see his dad anymore. Well, he still has autism, but he has zero behaviors. So what was it? Was it the autism or was it trauma? It was trauma

[00:17:20] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:17:20] Angela Myer: because everything he loved and held close to him was taken away and he was terrified. So he was acting out of terror, out of fear, because he was being taken away from his mom, who he had a secure attachment with. He was being taken

[00:17:36] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:17:36] Angela Myer: away from his school, his friends, his teachers, his bedroom, his toys, you know, everything that he cherished. He even stood in the judge's chamber and begged her not to live with his dad. But

[00:17:50] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:17:51] Angela Myer: that's the thing, a covert narcissist or any narcissist is so good at being a smooth talker and being, you know, like having charm and all of that. Um, And people buy it. And that's the thing, it's like you said, um, they can go so undetected if you don't know what, let's say, love bombing is. Because they can love bomb a judge, an attorney, you know, they can love bomb, but they don't know, people don't know what they're really like behind closed doors.

[00:18:27] Ed Watters: Yeah, very interesting. Yeah. So, so with your experience, not only were you dealing with narcissistic behavior from your husband in these covert ways, you were also dealing with people within the system

[00:18:47] Angela Myer: Yes.

[00:18:48] Ed Watters: that were supposed to be helping you.

[00:18:50] Angela Myer: Yes.

[00:18:51] Ed Watters: This parent coordinator ordeal, I just, it boiled my blood just researching about it, you know? So talk to people about what went on within the system itself when it turned on you.

[00:19:10] Angela Myer: Right. And that's really, um, unfortunate cause I mean, really why I wrote the book was to stop domestic violence and child abuse. Cause really what we experienced was, it is considered a crime. He got away with it and it's considered child abuse. And it's so, it's so unfortunate. And, and that's the real hard thing is, and I had to learn the hard way is, I tell people now, if your kiddo is having, you know, displaying certain trauma behaviors, that's the most important thing, if your child is displaying certain trauma behaviors, and I do have a list on a podcast of, you know, I think it's the, in the series, Can A Narcissist [00:20:00] Change part two, I talk all about trauma.

[00:20:02] Um, because the narcissist isn't born that way, we humans create them. And the six ways that they're created is through, uh, three parenting styles, a neglectful parent, an authoritarian parent, and an absent parent. And then the other three ways is bullying, trauma, and, um, child abuse. Those are the other three ways that they're created.

[00:20:28] And when I, you know, did the thing all about attachment styles, it really is all about child abuse, child neglect, you know, the child not getting their needs, needs met. And so what really, I learned the hard way is, it took me, Oh, God, maybe like two and a half years and three different therapists to just suck that finally I said, I need a trauma specialist.

[00:20:59] I need to work with someone that does let's say EMDR. I really knew I need someone that knows this because, I'm just going to be, you know, frank here. Like with my profession, I'm a clinical certified hypnotherapist. Well, anyone can take a weekend course, take the test and be certified and woo-hoo, I'm a hypnotherapist. But you are not specialized in weight loss, stop smoking, you know, trauma, anxiety, depression, pain, cancer, any of that stuff.

[00:21:33] You just have that label. And so that's what I really learned about with certain counselors is they've got the title, but what do you specialize in? You see where I'm coming from? And so that's what I experienced is, when you don't understand trauma and you don't understand the behaviors and how a person responds, because there's fight, flight, freeze, but then there's fawn.

[00:22:04] And fawn is where they call it like friends. And a lot of people think of them as codependent behaviors. It could be considered, you know, please and appease. Because you, and, and also it can be seen as a cry for help. So a good example of fawn would be, have you ever ran into a person and they want to tell you their whole life story?

[00:22:29] And it sounds so messed up and you're going, this person's really crazy. You know, it's like, they don't even know me and they're just telling me their whole life story. That is a trauma response and that is fawn. And I want people, when they see that behavior to be nice to that person because I, I, I was doing that.

[00:22:51] I was literally trying to beg for help. Like help me with this child, help me with this person, can't you see what's happening? And so many people were in the dark and when you're in the dark, you can't help them. And then the narcissistic person will set you up and bait you to get a reaction out of you.

[00:23:12] And then they'll say, Look, she's crazy. I told you, she's crazy. And, and they're the calm, quiet one sitting over there. Like, you know, it's, you know, calm and relaxed while you're the one having a reaction. Cause it's like, you're fighting for your life and they're just sitting there laughing inside.

[00:23:32] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:23:33] Angela Myer: Yeah. And so my, my recommendation for anyone that's dealing with a covert narcissist or any kind of narcissistic person is, you need to find someone that specializes in narcissism and specializes in trauma. Because there is a chapter in there where I, I was forced to get a psychological evaluation. And the person that gave me my psych eval was really old school. And he thought, he based, he misdiagnosed me and he said that I didn't have PTSD and that I had a distorted view of reality of what was happening to me.

[00:24:16] And it's like, how could I have a distorted reality when the person literally is plotting against me and creating a huge smear campaign? And he literally did. He plotted for five years how to like, drive me crazy and then take me to court. He spent $100,000 in legal fees, $100, 000. Yeah. Just to hurt me and it had nothing to do with our kiddo.

[00:24:45] Nothing to do with our son. It was, No, I'm going to destroy her, her reputation. I'm gonna just, you know, destroy her financially, you know, mentally, emotionally, it was a huge smear campaign. And that's the thing is, they have to win. They have to win and they will do it even to where it destroys themselves

[00:25:08] because they just gotta win. And, and that's the sad part, is when he went back to the judge eight months later, he, he flat out said the child should live with his mom because his wife left him, he lost his job, um, he was withholding evidence from the judge because the police were coming out every week.

[00:25:29] People were calling, um, law enforcement and child protective services. He wasn't giving our child the anxiety medication, you know, hydroxyzine for panic attacks, that's medical neglect. I mean, there was so much going on. And literally when the judge heard all this, my, my friend that was sitting in the background was like, I think she was crying. Because she literally apologized to me because then she knew who and what I was dealing with.

[00:26:00] She had no idea. She was just, she was blindsided like everybody, you know, everyone else. You know, he, he made himself appear a certain way, and, and he, he wasn't. I almost died because of this, my body couldn't handle the stress anymore. And I had to have surgery on my heart like veterans do.

[00:26:26] Ed Watters: Wow,

[00:26:27] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[00:26:27] Ed Watters: that's incredible. So, so because of all this behavior, what's the uh, implications on your son? How has this affected him?

[00:26:42] Angela Myer: Oh, it's, when he came home, he had a disorganized attachment style and that's the second one that I was the most concerned about. And with that one, it's where you don't trust yourself, you don't trust others. You don't trust authority figures. You're very angry, extremely angry. You can't regulate your emotions or, um, he was a mess. I mean, literally he was, he was having nightmares. Um, the first week he came home, he would literally wake up in the middle of the night and was throwing up. He was having nightmares, extreme nightmares.

[00:27:20] Um, his brain was just fried. I mean, that's what psychological abuse does. It can take your brain up to a year or two to get back to normal. He was a wreck, but the good news is with lots of love, and patience, and time, his attachment style with, you know, that he had when he came home with his dad has changed so he has more of an anxious attachment style. And, um, and the nice thing is his, his, his dad is letting him not have visitation, even though the court order says, you know, he should have visitation once a month.

[00:28:00] But here's the thing is, just recently, our son hadn't seen his dad since March and he had to see him again for, um, a passport card because he's a minor. Our son's nineteen. I mean, not nineteen he's, I wish, he's fourteen. He's fourteen. And so you have to have both parents signature. And so even though he saw his dad for fifteen minutes and his dad was nice and polite, it reactivated all his trauma. And he was having flashbacks and he was like, I don't feel like myself.

[00:28:36] And he was like, I hate him. I just, I don't want to see him anymore. I just can't, I can't be around him. Even if he's, you know, nice, he's like, and I get it, it's like, it, if you don't get the trauma therapy, when you see your abuser again, all those memories flood back, all those emotions. And it's so unsettling, really unsettling.

[00:29:01] And so just last week when I spoke to the psychiatrist that, you know, does his medication management for, you know, anxiety and depression, when I told him what happened, he's like, Your son has a severe case of trauma towards his dad, severe. And he was like, He should have zero visitation, zero. And so I'm like, Yes, I fully agree

[00:29:26] and, you know, and, and, you know, the therapist does as well. Because we finally found a trauma informed therapist for him. His last one was just, not good. But, you know, not every therapist is trained in trauma. And so where we're at right now is literally drafting a document to notify dad that, hey, this is where the child is at.

[00:29:55] And it's been, um, 2019 was when he came back [00:30:00] home. And that's the thing with trauma, you can't put a timeline on it. You can't say, Oh, he'll be better in a year if he doesn't see you, or he'll be better in two years. No, you can't put a timeline on trauma because you, you don't

[00:30:19] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:30:20] Angela Myer: know how the mind's going to react. You don't know how the emotions are going to react. And, um, and not until you're in that scenario again, are you really going to know, is it, is it safe? So, and, and the biggest thing is it's, it's just, it's got, it's got to take time. And so he is doing

[00:30:39] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:30:40] Angela Myer: really well and we talk a lot, he's a really sweet kiddo. I, I want him to definitely have empathy for people and, and he does. And he just doesn't for his dad right now, sorry. But he has selective empathy, let's just put it that way. Um,

[00:30:59] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:30:59] Angela Myer: But yeah, he's come a long way and he's, he's happy. And a lot of people just love him. He's, he's taught himself probably a dozen different languages. He's taught himself German,

[00:31:13] Ed Watters: Wow.

[00:31:14] Angela Myer: And Russian, and Hebrew, and even Gaelic, and some Italian

[00:31:19] Ed Watters: Wow.

[00:31:19] Angela Myer: And Spanish. Yeah.

[00:31:21] Ed Watters: That's impressive.

[00:31:23] Angela Myer: Yes. Well, he's what you would consider like a savant.

[00:31:27] Ed Watters: Oh, yeah? Awesome.

[00:31:29] Angela Myer: Yeah. He's taught himself how to play the keyboard, how to play the piano. He started creating his own songs and stuff. He's just,

[00:31:38] Ed Watters: Right on.

[00:31:39] Angela Myer: He's happy. But the one thing I think is the saddest thing for him is he just, he feels like his dad robbed him of his childhood and that's what he says

[00:31:47] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:31:48] Angela Myer: all the time. And I said, Yeah, he did. And I'm, I'm sorry for that. And that's what I'm trying to do is to prevent children from having their childhood robbed from them. You know, you're

[00:31:59] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:31:59] Angela Myer: only allowed to be a kid for so long and then you're not allowed to. I mean,

[00:32:06] Ed Watters: That's right, Angela, when, when you wrote the book, it's not a four page book by any means, it's, it's pretty detailed and laid out. How long did it take you? What, what was the, you know, frustrations of writing this book? And how, how did you feel once it was completed?

[00:32:33] Angela Myer: That's a really good question. Um, what started it is, um, and I talk about it in the introduction, is I was watching The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu. And there was a scene where she is in Canada and she is struggling with all the trauma responses like, she meets her husband again, and it's like, how do I connect with this man?

[00:33:01] And, and, and then these two narcissistic people that literally, um, we're just vicious to her, want her to feel like, well, we gave you a gift. You know, we gave you a roof under your head, we gave you food to eat. It's like, you should be grateful for us. And watching her in front of the, the judge and the jury thing and, and talk about her situation and the way that she was just kind of treated,

[00:33:32] it triggered me like so big time that I just, I felt her rage. I felt her anger. It's like the look in her eyes was how I felt. And I'm like, you know what? Everyone tells me I should write this book, everybody tells me. And so I was like, I'm going to do it. And the first twenty chapters just flew out of me, I wrote it in like less than a week.

[00:33:59] It just poured out of me, yeah. And then when I had to write the really hard stuff, I, I had to get a massage, like twice, twice a month. I, all these, all the trauma just started coming out of my body. And the more that I wrote, but I was like, No, I have to do this, I have to do this. And there was one point,

[00:34:23] yeah, with the parent coordinator that, and she was vile. Oh my God. She, she literally should be disbarred, honestly. Because when I went to, with my son to the Oregon state bar to file a complaint against her, they wouldn't even hand me the paperwork. As soon as I said her name, I think they knew who she was. And I'm like, they

[00:34:45] Ed Watters: Wow.

[00:34:45] Angela Myer: didn't take us in a conference room, they didn't want to hear our story. As soon as I said her name, I need to file a complaint against her, they were like, No, you need to call the lawyer referral board, you know, you call, you know. And I'm like, No, I'm not suing her, I'm filing a complaint. No, we can't help you here. So, someone has mentioned to me to just send my book to the, um, What is it? The district attorney's office for the state of Oregon and say, You know what? This is what's happening in your state and this is, you know, what's happening under your nose because this woman literally is a danger to society, she is. Because he turned her into a flying monkey. Do you know what a flying monkey is?

[00:35:33] Ed Watters: No. Off of, off of, uh, Wizard of Oz?

[00:35:40] Angela Myer: A flying monkey is where the narcissist convinces the, convinces someone that the person is a certain way. That they will believe them without fact checking. They will literally believe every lie they say and think it's truth without fact checking. And so here's something that dad did that hurt me and was meant to hurt my career and, um, and just smear me completely. So besides being a, you know, clinical certified hypnotherapist, I also got my certification in past life regression. And I had lots of clients literally asking me to get that certification because they wanted to do it with me. And so during my training, I had to work with like, eight different people. And I worked with my daughter,

[00:36:41] I worked with her friends, I worked with some of my friends. And Mars, our son at the time kept saying, I want to do it, I want to do it. And I was like, You can't, you're too, you're too young. It's only meant for adults. And he kept saying, Well, I have a strong connection with you. I think, you know, we had a past life together.

[00:37:01] And I told him, I said, Well, maybe we were brothers in a past life. You know, who knows? You, you know, maybe we were, you know, brothers or maybe we were sister and brother. I said, you know, I said, I don't know, but when you get older, you could find out. Well, he shared that with his dad and the dad told the parent coordinator that I told our son that we were lovers in a past life and she believed him.

[00:37:29] She believed him and she did not fact check. She did not ask our child, she did not ask me. If our, if that was true and our son said that at school, you know child protective services would be knocking on my door. Yeah.

[00:37:44] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:37:44] Angela Myer: They would be knocking on my door. And because she, because she didn't fact check it, she went to the judge and said that was true, she did say that. And I'm like, I never said that. I would never say that. Even when I asked my son, you know, did I ever say that? He's like, No, that's disgusting. I'm like, Yes, it is. But that's what they do, they lie to such a degree that you don't get it. And so here's another good example, you know when all the people stormed the Capitol? That's called jumping on the bandwagon.

[00:38:23] They believe the narcissistic person to such a degree that they will do what, what they have to say regardless of the consequences. Because they believe, well, I'm not going to get in trouble. This person's going to protect me or this person's going to back me. But do you think that happened? No, all those people that stormed there, you know, some are doing jail time. And it's like, you don't wake up one morning and say, Oh, today's a good day to storm the White House. You know, that just,

[00:38:52] Ed Watters: Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:53] Angela Myer: That's not a normal behavior. You know, it's like, you might think

[00:38:58] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:38:58] Angela Myer: it sounds fun and exciting, but do you really know the consequences of what you're being

[00:39:03] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:39:03] Angela Myer: asked to do or what you're considering?

[00:39:05] Ed Watters: There's not a lot of logical thought going

[00:39:07] Angela Myer: Yes.

[00:39:08] Ed Watters: on there.

[00:39:09] Angela Myer: Yes. And so, and so, there was moments writing the book that I hit a wall. And there was one point with the parent coordinator that she did something that was immoral. And I don't know if it was illegal, but I do have the video. But it was during, and it's in the book, there was a time where it was during an exchange, and our son was led to believe that on his birthday, he was coming back home with me.

[00:39:42] And the parent coordinator told him that, judge told him that, um, even, um, even dad told him that. And so at the exchange, the parent coordinator was there and she said to me that she was ordered by the judge to tell [00:40:00] our child that he was not going to be coming home, that he was going to be staying with dad.

[00:40:05] And she made me do it, made me do it. And the thing is, is I wasn't ordered to do it by the judge and she made me do it. And, and it was really hard for me to do it. And one of my friends at my son's party actually video recorded me saying it because I didn't want the parent coordinator to lie and say, Well, I told her not to do this and she did it, see? You get what I mean? And so,

[00:40:39] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:40:39] Angela Myer: yeah. Because you can be set up literally. And that's the thing is, a narcissistic person will know another who, and who else is a narc and they'll use that person to do heinous things to you. It's like an indirect form of abuse. They're just having someone else abuse you on their behalf and their benefit. And so at the end of writing the book, I was, it took me a lot of courage because even right now, Ed, you're lucky to see me as I am, because the picture on the book is a cartoon picture. Well, even on my podcast cover, it's me wearing a red wig and glasses and I was trying to hide my identity. And Angela Myer is not my real name, that's my pin name. I was afraid that, um, he would go after me. But now that I've learned so much and I have so much backing me, it's like, No, I'm, I'm not going to live in fear anymore. I'm really,

[00:41:45] Ed Watters: That's right.

[00:41:46] Angela Myer: yeah, I, because if I keep living in fear, then I'm just existing. I'm not living. And I'm doing this to, to stop abuse. I'm doing this, you know, not to make him look bad. But I'm doing this to protect other people. And, you know, if he ever does find out, that's the thing is, I'm, I'm not, I don't want to use him as a bad example. I just want also other narcissistic people to know this is what happens. If you love your child and you don't want to destroy your relationship with your child, then don't do these things.

[00:42:24] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:42:24] Angela Myer: Cause your child will never forgive you, your child will never be the same way again.

[00:42:29] Ed Watters: Yeah. What was your feelings about that? You know, you know, we hear about Stockholm Syndrome

[00:42:38] Angela Myer: Yes. Oh, I've had it.

[00:42:39] Ed Watters: and where we get attached. Yeah. It's obvious, you know? So there, there had to be an attachment anyway because you were married to them, you had a son with them. And some of the vicious things that man and wife can do is just awful. So what, what was that feeling, you know, and how long did it last until you finally said No, no more

[00:43:11] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[00:43:11] Ed Watters: and you took action?

[00:43:13] Angela Myer: I, I left him when our son was about three and a half. And, um, and, and it, and it was hard. I mean, it was really hard. And I, I did, I do have a podcast series all about what is trauma bonding because I was in a trauma bonded relationship. And a lot of people don't realize is, we are taught to stay in a trauma bonded relationship. We are taught to, so here's an example of trauma bonding, and it can be passed down by generation to generation to generation,

[00:43:47] let's say dad has a drinking problem. And one night dad is verbally abusive. I mean, you can just be verbally abusive. And you're crying the next day and your friend is asking you what's wrong and you say, Oh no, I'm fine. I'm, you know, I'm just a little emotional today. And the friend could say, Oh, did he cut into you today?

[00:44:10] And you're like, No, I'm just worried about this or that. So you make excuses for their bad behavior, you dismiss their bad behavior. You can lie if, let's say, your best friend gave you a really nice vase and the narcissist people, person, um, destroyed it. And your friend sees that it got destroyed and you lie, you cover it up.

[00:44:35] Like, Oh no, you know, the cat jumped up and knocked the vase down instead of really telling the truth because you're embarrassed, you're ashamed, you're humiliated. They don't want to, they, they feel foolish that they fell for this. And sometimes when someone tries to leave, a family member will say, Look what you're doing to this, you know, to this family. You're destroying it. You know, you need to work on it, you know, you, you got married, you're supposed to stick it out. But if the person is so abusive, then what are you teaching your kids? You're teaching that it's okay to yell at a person, it's okay to

[00:45:12] Ed Watters: That's right.

[00:45:12] Angela Myer: rip into a person. Those are all modeled behaviors and modeled patterns. And, and that's why it gets passed down because that's considered normal when it's not normal.

[00:45:25] Ed Watters: Right. Yes. My wife and I, we, we have been dealing with that for quite some time, you know, uh, dealing with past traumas. And in a relationship, it's very hard. And we have found if you avoid it, it's just going to build and build.

[00:45:48] Angela Myer: Yep.

[00:45:49] Ed Watters: So the best thing to do is address it with truth, honesty, and knowing there's a reason something's feeling out of order.

[00:46:00] Angela Myer: Right.

[00:46:00] Ed Watters: So you really have to dive in to find out why sometimes and that's important. To dive in and discover, is it me really? Or is it the situation I'm in? Because we do put blame on ourselves way too much when it's the situation that we're in. What, what can you talk to us about on that?

[00:46:26] Angela Myer: Well, a lot of us have core wounds. And so some of the core wounds are, I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy. Um, you have fear of abandonment, you can have fear of rejection. You could, um, be a perfectionist. Like for, for me, I know, I don't know if it's like, I'm not, I think it's the I'm not good enough. So when you have the, I'm not good enough, you people please. Okay. You're always pleasing, pleasing, you're a, you're a giver. You over give, you, you over, actually sacrifice yourself. You know, you don't think about the, the time, the money, or the energy that, you know, someone is asking of you. And so I've kind of learned over time that instead of looking at it as a negative, that it's now my superpower. Because, I'll give you a perfect example was, a couple of weeks ago, I was, you know, watching TV with one of my friends.

[00:47:32] And they saw that on Amazon Prime, I, I've got extra features. I got the Discovery Channel, I got like AMC plus. And they were like, Oh wow, I really, you know, love this feature, but I don't have a smart TV. And I knew what they were doing because they saw that I share my account with another person. And I had an extra space open that I could share it. And I could tell they were trying to hint that they wanted me to give them access.

[00:48:03] And normally I would say, Here, take it. Go ahead. Fine. Look, you see who else is on, but I know they're narcissistic. And I don't want to, and I thought about it, um, but I wasn't going to go there. And so the alternative shift I did was I said, Well, this isn't a smart TV either, um, I use a Roku remote. And I said, Look, see, it's probably twenty-nine bucks.

[00:48:30] And they looked on Amazon and yeah, it was like twenty-eight, twenty-nine bucks. And I said, See, so you could have a smart TV. But here's the thing is, when they were leaving, they started, um, gaslighting me about a certain situation. And I knew why they were doing that was then to make me feel bad about myself. So then I would apologize,

[00:48:54] and then I would give them, you know, my Amazon thing. I knew exactly the game they were playing and I didn't take the bait and they weren't very happy. They didn't actually directly ask me out loud, but I knew that was their intention. I knew that's what they were, you know, doing. And so I, I basically spared myself.

[00:49:21] I look at it as I, you know, I saved my, myself from that situation. And so it's really just, when you know the behaviors that they do to you, it's so much easier to step back and observe it from a detached perspective. And so in, how I teach people to decode and detect a narcissist is by watching certain shows.

[00:49:46] And I tell them, Watch these shows and see if you can spot the gaslighting, the stonewalling, the projection. And the great thing about watching shows is, it is detached perspective. You can pause it, you [00:50:00] can rewind it, you can watch it over and over again. Because then when you can see the behaviors, the tone of voice, the mannerism, all that stuff,

[00:50:10] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:50:10] Angela Myer: it's easier to catch then when it's happening in your face, in your reality.

[00:50:16] Ed Watters: That's right. You know, and going through that, it's, it teaches, it's education. And

[00:50:26] Angela Myer: Yes.

[00:50:26] Ed Watters: that's, that's one thing I always say, Educate yourself. You have to know the world that you live in. And

[00:50:34] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[00:50:34] Ed Watters: these Narcissistic behaviors, like you've stated, they're everywhere.

[00:50:39] Angela Myer: Oh, yeah.

[00:50:40] Ed Watters: And we fall vulnerable all the time to it because we want to feel that we're doing something good. So, and when, when you do run across it, it's very important to understand what's going on. And then set the healthy boundary.

[00:51:01] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[00:51:01] Ed Watters: And not only for yourself, you've got to set the boundary with the individual, it's very important. So they actually get notified, you've done this and it's not right, it's not okay. And you don't have to do that in a mean, nasty way. It's just, Hey, you know, I'm not into that, so let's not do that again.

[00:51:29] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[00:51:29] Ed Watters: And it's that simple. And if they want to take it further, then you've got to really identify, should I even be here allowing them

[00:51:41] Angela Myer: Right.

[00:51:41] Ed Watters: to be in my presence. And that's not an ego thing, that's just a protectionism thing. Where hey, if you want to be something, surround yourself with the people you want to be, and

[00:51:57] Angela Myer: Right.

[00:51:57] Ed Watters: that's not something you want to be. And if they don't want to accept that, that's not you, that's their boundaries, that they're not accepting. But you've got to put a healthy boundary on those to be disciplined in your own life. It's, it's very important to do that.

[00:52:19] Angela Myer: It is. Um, setting healthy boundaries with them is, is really key. So like, I think it was last week, I was on a, being interviewed on a different podcast that deals with teachers. And one of the ladies was asking, you know, like, How do you deal with a narcissistic boss or, you know, even, you know, coworker or manager? And I gave her the example is, if you have a narcissistic boss that always at the last minute overloads you with work and assignment, you need to, um, you know, see if that's a pattern. If it keeps happening, keeps happening. Another way to see is, let's say, for example, you tell your boss that, Well, tonight I need to leave here by, you know, five o'clock,

[00:53:07] I have a, a dinner arrangement or I have a, you know, something to do. And at 4:30 or 4 o'clock, that person piles all that work on, all this work on you so you'll be late or you'll miss your dinner party or whatever it was, if you notice a pattern happening like that, I would stop telling them and I would just pack up your stuff at five o'clock and go.

[00:53:32] Ed Watters: That's right, that's right.

[00:53:33] Angela Myer: Yeah. Or if the person is piling so much stuff on you say, Hey, you know, um, I know this project is really important to you and it's important to me as well. I know that I can't get it done in the time that needs to be done and I would need help. So is there someone else in the office that maybe has a lighter load that could support me in finishing this project for you? Or you

[00:53:59] Ed Watters: That's right

[00:53:59] Angela Myer: go find someone that, you know, has a lighter load and say, Hey, he's doing it to me again. Can you help me out by just getting, you know, just fifteen minutes of your time to help me finish this up? You know, it's trying to find, you know, ways. But if they pile a huge one on you and it's so unrealistic, cause sometimes they do, they want to sabotage you.

[00:54:21] So what you would do then is, you know, you can literally talk to that person and say, I need a temp, I need a temp to come in and help me out with this project. If the boss doesn't want to help you with that, I say, go to HR. Go to HR and say, This is the project I have. I've talked to my manager. He doesn't seem it's necessary, but realistically, I got to tell you, I can't get this done.

[00:54:46] Nobody can get this done. And I don't feel comfortable in this situation. So I'm coming to you because you have the power to hire someone temporary. And I'm asking if you could support me in this issue, because he's a rather difficult person to work with, or she's rather, rather difficult. And, um, And I, I don't want to be stressed out about this. And so I'm asking for help. And that's

[00:55:11] Ed Watters: That's right.

[00:55:11] Angela Myer: setting a boundary. That's setting a boundary with yourself, with your work. Cause that's a problem is so many of us, I like to call it, You're carrying someone else's monkeys on your back. You know, you

[00:55:24] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:55:24] Angela Myer: think it's your business, you think it's, you know, this is your life, but it's not. Cause when you walk out of those doors, you should not be taking work home with you. That's your

[00:55:34] Ed Watters: Right.

[00:55:34] Angela Myer: time.

[00:55:36] Ed Watters: That's right. The team stops at the door.

[00:55:39] Angela Myer: Yes.

[00:55:41] Ed Watters: So yeah, I 100 percent agree. And once you learn to set that boundary, you're going to be a lot happier in your life. And it took me a long time to set that type of boundary. I was in my forties before I figured that out. And you know, it's kind of, uh, disheartening that it took me that long, but I was numb to the world outside of my tunnel vision of the day to day. I didn't have the time to reflect on what my life was actually being, what it's like and how full of nonsense it was.

[00:56:22] Angela Myer: Right.

[00:56:23] Ed Watters: So once we figure that out, slow down and identify the important things

[00:56:30] Angela Myer: Right.

[00:56:30] Ed Watters: and declutter our life, that clutter creeps in and sometimes you have to set order to it. That's for sure.

[00:56:40] Angela Myer: You really, you, you do in a, in a lot of ways because that, and the thing is, is setting boundaries with them is the hardest because they don't like boundaries. They, they literally

[00:56:52] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:56:52] Angela Myer: hate, they

[00:56:53] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:56:53] Angela Myer: hate them. And, and boundaries is what keeps you safe.

[00:56:58] Ed Watters: That's right.

[00:57:00] Angela Myer: Yeah, it's, it keeps your sanity and that's what boundaries really are for, is for your peace of mind. Because you can't, you just, it's, it's not fair to anybody to be, you know, walked all over, or, or stepped on, or manipulated, or, you know, even, you know, controlled. And I got to tell you, it can be really frustrating and disheartening when you, when you find out. Because you could have been in the, in the dark for like thirty years about, you know, certain family members. And then you're like, Oh my God, you know?

[00:57:38] Ed Watters: That's right.

[00:57:40] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[00:57:40] Ed Watters: That's right. You're a product of your environment

[00:57:44] Angela Myer: Yes.

[00:57:45] Ed Watters: and it's hard to break away, that's for sure. Uh, you don't heal when you're angry. I

[00:57:53] Angela Myer: Yes.

[00:57:53] Ed Watters: got that from one of your podcasts. That is so clever and so true. Talk to us about that a little bit.

[00:58:03] Angela Myer: Well, when I was doing my recovery, what I kept hearing was hate, anger, fear, hate, anger, fear. You know, they're evil

[00:58:13] Ed Watters: That's right.

[00:58:13] Angela Myer: people, they're vile people. And one night when I was just lying in bed, I, I heard that, you know, did you know a narcissist isn't born that way? You humans create them. And I was like, What the heck? So I started doing research, I started

[00:58:29] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[00:58:29] Angela Myer: doing research and I, I learned that, Oh my God, that's true. And so when

[00:58:35] Ed Watters: Yes.

[00:58:35] Angela Myer: I talked to my son's psychiatrist and I asked him. He was like bingo, how'd you figure that out? And I was just like, I didn't want to tell you, you know, cause, I, I'll just share with you, I'm, I'm an empath and, um, and I channel. And so, uh, there is one podcast that, um, there was one night I was ready to do a speaking engagement at a two day event up in Portland.

[00:59:05] And I was lying in bed and I got the message that you need to check your email. And this was a Thursday night. And I'm like, Who's going to email me at 9:45 at night? Who? But it was the event and they were changing my, my speaking time from an hour to a half an hour. And I was like, I can't teach this class in a half an hour.

[00:59:29] I literally can't. And what speaks to me said, Oh no, you can get it done in like eight minutes, like that. And I'm like, What? And they said, Yeah, you can. And so for four hours, I downloaded all this information. They were like, You're going to draw this triangle that's upside down and you're going to split it, you know, in four sections where the top part is, you know, autism. Where as a society we have embraced that,

[00:59:58] you know, as a global society. [01:00:00] And then the second one would be, uh, mental health. Where we've embraced that too, you know, we have Mental Health Awareness Month. But as the triangle got smaller, the next section was trauma, and we reject that. Uh, maybe twenty percent or less of the population are trauma informed, and we need to be trauma informed. And then the very bottom was narcissism. We reject that as well, we don't want to talk about it. But the key thing is, all of those pieces are the whole component of mental health. And here's the truth

[01:00:35] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:00:35] Angela Myer: is, when I learned about my son's autism, um, I was in the dark. I had to take parenting classes, I had to learn how to play with him because in the beginning he was non verbal. Uh, I took his behaviors personally. I, I was frustrated because my daughter doesn't have autism, but he did. And as soon as I got educated and informed, when he acted out, when he did certain things, I didn't take it personal anymore. And I knew he was, you know, that it had nothing to do with me as a parent.

[01:01:13] And that's the key thing is, it wanted people to get is, it's the same exact thing when you're not educated and informed about narcissism. Because when someone gaslights you, you're like, Well, maybe they are right. Maybe I, you know, was being overly sensitive, or maybe, you know, I don't know how to take a joke, or maybe they're saying that really did happen and, and, and maybe, you know, I had too much to drink or, you know, or maybe I wasn't, you know, there're all those stupid excuses. But it was like so profound,

[01:01:47] the, the four images they wanted me to draw and what they wanted me to talk about. And I've, and when I go and I, I talk about this stuff, I've even had narcissists come up to me and thank me. Literally thank me for talking and helping them understand their brain and understanding how they were created and how to communicate with them. And every single narcissist person said the same thing, that they could feel when they were slipping from their cortex rational brain down into the survivor brain, the limbic brain. And I

[01:02:23] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:02:24] Angela Myer: told them, Okay, so that's your window of opportunity. So when you feel that slip, what you should say to the person is, I really care about you. I'm getting angry right now and I don't wanna hurt your feelings, I need to walk away. I need to walk

[01:02:40] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:02:40] Angela Myer: away, I need to calm down. And, um, and when I'm calmed down and I feel better, then we can talk. And I said, Every

[01:02:49] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:02:49] Angela Myer: time you do that, you are creating a new neural pathway and you're rewiring your brain.

[01:02:56] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:02:57] Angela Myer: Yeah. And I said, Because a narcissist can change. I literally helped a narcissist change. So, and I've, I've helped a few. There's one young woman that I'm working with that when she was around fourteen, her mom accidentally died. And that was so traumatizing for her. And so she got traumatized by that, but then her dad traumatized her as well because he was so stuck in grief that he couldn't emotionally give her the support that she needed.

[01:03:29] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:03:30] Angela Myer: And so she shut down from the world and didn't trust people, um, was angry, really, really angry, struggles with anxiety. And so I just tell her, You're temporarily narcissistic, you know, there's, it's not permanent. You, you, you can change, you know, it just takes time and patience. And, and, and not, and, you know, and working on your anger and resolving the trauma triggers.

[01:04:01] Ed Watters: Yeah, trigger points,

[01:04:03] Angela Myer: Yes.

[01:04:03] Ed Watters: I talk about them all the time. Once you identify the trigger points

[01:04:08] Angela Myer: Yes.

[01:04:08] Ed Watters: and you understand that's what's setting you off, you can change your behavior.

[01:04:15] Angela Myer: Yes.

[01:04:15] Ed Watters: It's, it sounds simple, but very hard to actually do. And once, once you have a, I found that my wife supports me a lot in that. She helped me change from that kind of narcissistic behavior to a more empathetic, understanding, caring

[01:04:35] Angela Myer: Right.

[01:04:35] Ed Watters: individual. And identifying what I was being triggered about that was causing those behaviors in the first place.

[01:04:45] Angela Myer: Right.

[01:04:45] Ed Watters: So that support system and having somebody truthful with you about who you are and how you're being, that's very important and a blessing to have in your life.

[01:05:01] Angela Myer: It is.

[01:05:02] Ed Watters: How did, how did, how did you find to relate with yourself after dealing with a narcissistic behavior? I, I know as, as talking about my past behaviors, there was some disrespectful moments with my wife that I can never take back. And

[01:05:24] Angela Myer: Right.

[01:05:25] Ed Watters: understanding that and how that impacts her, that really is important for people to understand. When you act a certain way to a person, especially one that's connected very close to you, that cares about you, you're destroying a relationship in ways that you don't understand. And trying to build those bonds back after you've broken those bonds, oh gosh, it takes years and years and years.

[01:06:00] Angela Myer: You're trying to rebuild trust.

[01:06:03] Ed Watters: Yes, that's right. And you know, that's, that's important for people to understand. And if, if you have been, uh, a person that's acted out to a person that's close to you and you realize your wrongs, it takes time. And you're going to have to give that time to rebuild that trust, that bond. But it can happen and it does happen and there is hope. And you can't diminish it with excuses or even reasons to fall back onto those behaviors.

[01:06:47] Angela Myer: Right.

[01:06:47] Ed Watters: You've got to have the understanding within yourself that you've got to be responsible for your own actions. That's what it boils down to.

[01:06:59] Angela Myer: And that's a sign of maturity is when you can take

[01:07:02] Ed Watters: Yes.

[01:07:02] Angela Myer: responsibility for your actions. And that's why I say a lot of narcissistic people seem immature because they're not taking responsibility for their actions.

[01:07:13] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:07:13] Angela Myer: And as you were talking, um, that the hard part is, all of what you were saying is learned behavior. So it's on automatic pilot, okay? But when you

[01:07:26] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:07:26] Angela Myer: can become self aware and you realize that behavior is destructive, that's your place of power. Because without

[01:07:37] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:07:37] Angela Myer: being aware of it, you're still going to be on automatic pilot. You've got to bring

[01:07:42] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:07:42] Angela Myer: your conscious awareness, that, that's what I do. And

[01:07:46] Ed Watters: That's right. The subconscious will hurt you.

[01:07:51] Angela Myer: Yes. And so instead of being, and I'm going to probably have to grab a glass of water because my water is empty. But, um,

[01:08:00] Ed Watters: Yes.

[01:08:01] Angela Myer: when you were talking about triggers is, when you're triggered, you become reactive instead

[01:08:08] Ed Watters: Yes.

[01:08:08] Angela Myer: of having the ability to

[01:08:09] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:08:10] Angela Myer: respond.

[01:08:12] Ed Watters: Yes. Big difference.

[01:08:14] Angela Myer: Big difference. Reacting is one thing, responding is different. Reacting is, it's like you're on automatic pilot because you're, you got triggered, you're going to do the automatic pilot trigger response. And,

[01:08:27] Ed Watters: Right.

[01:08:28] Angela Myer: but when you're, you can, you know, respond in a way where you have a choice. Do I want to say this? Do I not want to say this? Do I want to walk away? Do I want to agree to disagree? You know, do

[01:08:43] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:08:44] Angela Myer: I, am I, do I feel myself going down that path where I'm going to be a complete jerk?

[01:08:49] Ed Watters: It's beautiful when you get that choice.

[01:08:52] Angela Myer: Yes.

[01:08:55] Ed Watters: Angela, I wanted to touch a little bit on paying attention to detail, I notice you do that well.

[01:09:03] Angela Myer: Yes.

[01:09:03] Ed Watters: So how does that help you stabilize your life or is that a curse?

[01:09:13] Angela Myer: No, I really feel being self aware is so key and so important because when you're not self aware is when we can get hurt. And, and, and I always talk about, so we, let's say you encounter somebody new, you can always tell there's, there's this subtle stuff that you can tell. So let's say for example, two people get in a fight and you walk in the room. You could feel the anger, you can feel the tension without even saying a word or anyone saying a word. You can feel someone got in a fight here. [01:10:00] And that's self awareness. And

[01:10:03] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:10:03] Angela Myer: let's say, yeah, it is self awareness. And so let's say, um, you're in a bad mood and I walk into your office. Just by observing your body language, your tone of voice, your mannerism, your eye contact, the, you know, how do you speak to me and all that, you can learn so much from what is unsaid. Just about,

[01:10:31] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:10:32] Angela Myer: you can and that's being self aware. Because,

[01:10:35] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:10:36] Angela Myer: and a lot of times, um, our intuition kicks in and tells us this is not a safe situation or this isn't really a trustworthy person. You got to listen to that because

[01:10:51] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:10:52] Angela Myer: I call it, that's your spidey senses telling you

[01:10:55] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:10:55] Angela Myer: something is off. And so self awareness

[01:11:00] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:11:00] Angela Myer: is, it's so important when you drive a car, you need to be self aware of the other vehicles around you and how they're driving. Especially if you're driving next to a truck, you know, sometimes you can tell, whoa, that truck driver's, you know, he must be tired. He's going back and forth through the lanes, I need to keep my vehicle away from him to keep safe. That's self aware.

[01:11:27] Ed Watters: That's right. I think that's key and a lot of people just, I don't know if it's laziness or they, they just are so busy and tired from all of the, you know, it's bombarding you from everywhere. But if you let it tire you, you, you kind of get dragging and all of that. But if, if you really tune in to your world and exist with the energies that you were

[01:11:59] Angela Myer: Yes.

[01:11:59] Ed Watters: just talking about noticing, well, there's something that stands out about that person, I'm going to be aware and watch. You know, it's lacking in our world today and

[01:12:15] Angela Myer: Yes.

[01:12:15] Ed Watters: what we're doing right now is we're helping people understand and grow in their own world. It's, it's very vital what we are doing and I respect what you have been doing, bringing clarity with your detail, especially

[01:12:36] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[01:12:36] Ed Watters: with the book. I know I'll grab a copy. Do you have a call to action for our listeners today?

[01:12:46] Angela Myer: Um, the call to action to me is, is to just really for people to be educated. To get yourself educated and informed. And when you realize that maybe you have been dealing with someone that is narcissistic, um, just, you have a choice, okay? And that's the, the, the biggest thing is, you have a choice because there can be one part of you that still loves that person, but you know it's not healthy. Okay, and that's rather challenging. I, I know on my, uh, I do have a blog post about the fifty obstacles to leaving an abusive relationship. And supposedly the number of times a woman or a person in domestic violence tries to leave that person is seven. That's really, really high. And I think why the number is so high is all those things we don't take into consideration. Like, I'm going to be homeless, he's going to take away, and what if they are your financial support? They're going to

[01:13:58] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:13:58] Angela Myer: take away the credit cards, the money, they could take away your vehicle so you can't leave. Um, they could have turned your family members against you, they, they literally can, can do that. They can turn your support system against you by smearing you. There's all these scenarios that I think a lot of women don't take into consideration. Or they threaten, I'll take this child away from you, you'll never see them again. So you stay in that abusive relationship. So I am actually, um, which I'm really excited about,

[01:14:35] there's a place up in Portland that helps create an exit plan for people that are in a domestic violence situation and how to stay safe. And I'm going to be interviewing them this Friday, which I'm really excited about. And I'll post it, you know, the following week. And then there's another place that I found it's called, um, Safe Haven.

[01:15:00] And what they do is, because of the financial abuse that narcissists are known to do, they give you a P. O. box or safety deposit box where there's money in there. So you do have the financial means to leave, to get away instead of, because a lot of people stay because they don't have the financial support. They're afraid,

[01:15:25] well, I don't have a roof under my head, or he took away my transportation, and I don't have enough, you know, resources. And so it's providing these tools and resources for, for people. So the biggest thing that I've learned, um, in talking to other people that do this, you know, domestic violence support is, there's so much support out there.

[01:15:55] You just have to ask. And you, you've got to find what's available in your, your community. You, you really got to see what, what's available because there are, and that's the thing is, it all depends on, you know, is it a small town or is it a big town? So if you're in a small town, try to reach out to a bigger town because they might, you know, be able to trickle off their resources to your demographics, but you don't know it unless you ask.

[01:16:26] Ed Watters: That's right. That's key right there.

[01:16:29] Angela Myer: Yeah. And so just, you know, the call to action is to really, you know, educate yourself about it. And also in a way, you know, educate your, your kids about it when they become teenagers. Because it's best to give them these tools and this information when, when they're young because they are going to experience it. Because here's another known fact, one out of three women will experience some form of domestic violence in their lifetime. And that's a really high number.

[01:17:06] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:17:06] Angela Myer: I think the number for men is like one out of ten. So it's, you know, it's, it's a smaller percentage, but it, it happens

[01:17:16] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:17:16] Angela Myer: and, and that's the thing is, if you, if you don't know who and what you're dealing with, you, you can be victimized. You can, you know, you can be verbally abused, mentally abused, physically abused. And, and it's that saying, if that, that person says, you know, that, you know, that person has a history of cheating, well, you should expect to be cheated on, you know, it's just

[01:17:44] Ed Watters: Right.

[01:17:44] Angela Myer: common sense. If that person, you know, was, one big thing that, there's two things that I've, I've kind of learned is, when someone says, or they want to convince you that I'm a good person, oh, I'm a good person, they're really not a good person. Because a good person

[01:18:03] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:18:04] Angela Myer: doesn't have to tell you they're a good person.

[01:18:06] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:18:07] Angela Myer: Their actions, the key word, their actions speak louder than their words, okay?

[01:18:13] Ed Watters: That's right

[01:18:14] Angela Myer: That's the thing about a narcissist is, their actions do not match their words, okay? And then if, another big thing I've noticed with a narcissist is, they totally bad mouth their ex. They say all these terrible things.

[01:18:30] And if they're saying that about them, what makes you think they're not going to say it about you if you break up? And that's

[01:18:41] Ed Watters: Yes.

[01:18:41] Angela Myer: that's what they do, you know, because they're playing the victim and

[01:18:46] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:18:46] Angela Myer: they want your sympathy. And so it's,

[01:18:50] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:18:51] Angela Myer: it's just becoming, you know, aware of who and what you're dealing with. And really listening to what they say because sometimes they're saying it in an indirect way. And, and then they'll throw it at you later by saying, Well, I told you, you know, that, um, you know, X, Y, and Z, but you weren't listening. And in

[01:19:15] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:19:15] Angela Myer: reality, you weren't listening. Cause it's like a lot of times we can dismiss it or make an excuse for it. And when I look back at the situation with my son's father, if, oh, it was like, it was so obvious. But I, I was in the dark, you know, I was completely in the dark like a lot of other people. And, and I grew up in that kind of environment, so it was normal.

[01:19:40] Ed Watters: Yeah. You got to educate yourself and take the first step, especially if it's a physical, uh,

[01:19:48] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[01:19:48] Ed Watters: physical and, uh, mental abuse together. Because usually if there's physical, there's definitely been a lot of mental with that. So [01:20:00] the first step is taking that action step, it's the scariest thing. But even if you get it wrong, you're out and

[01:20:10] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[01:20:11] Ed Watters: then you can identify what you need to do to restart and build your life over. It's never over. All you've got to do is start over that's the key.

[01:20:25] Angela Myer: Right.

[01:20:25] Ed Watters: So how can people reach out and hook up with you and get your services?

[01:20:33] Angela Myer: So my website is Um, people can email me at I'm on Instagram, I'm on Twitter and I do coaching with people. I, I have a really great podcast out there about how to communicate with difficult people. Because the holidays are coming up and as you know, a narcissist loves to create drama around the holidays.

[01:21:06] Ed Watters: That's right.

[01:21:09] Angela Myer: Yeah. And, you know, well, and here's a funny joke I'll share with you. I posted on Facebook this, this little saying that says, If you want to save money on your Christmas presents, you know, then talk about politics, you know, for Thanksgiving. And, and then the little joke down below it, you know, it shows this chimpanzee smoking a cigar. And at the bottom, it says, I'm going to save a lot of money on Christmas presents this year.

[01:21:46] Ed Watters: It doesn't take much, does it?

[01:21:47] Angela Myer: It doesn't take much. But, but yeah, it's just, I just want people to be safe and I want people to make, you know, good healthy choices, you know, for themselves and for their, you know, for their kiddos and for your sanity. Because at the end of the day, you know, that's what really matters the most is just, you know, having that peace of mind and, and

[01:22:14] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:22:14] Angela Myer: staying safe and healthy.

[01:22:17] Ed Watters: Yeah, and definitely don't sit down and shut up. You definitely need to stand up and speak up because that's what changes and gets people talking and thinking. If you don't say anything, it's just going to keep being the same. Take the first step, that's important.

[01:22:38] Angela Myer: Right. Well,

[01:22:40] Ed Watters: Angela,

[01:22:41] Angela Myer: Yeah.

[01:22:42] Ed Watters: Go ahead.

[01:22:42] Angela Myer: I just wanted to say when it comes to the speaking up, sometimes, sometimes you can't speak up to an abusive person because you're not in the place where you're safe enough to do it. So if, to me, if, if you are in that situation, I would wait until you are out of their home and you are away from them and you have a support system that backs you. So if they threaten you again, That's when you can stand your ground.

[01:23:13] And I tell people use a voice recorder on your phone. You know, if they make a threat to you, you've got it recorded or else it's just hearsay, you know?

[01:23:23] Ed Watters: Yeah.

[01:23:23] Angela Myer: And yeah, and set those healthy boundaries. But sometimes, you know, you do just, I hate to say this, sometimes just to stay safe, you need to, um, keep your mouth shut and just bait your, bide your time until you can literally get away and get, and be safe.

[01:23:43] Ed Watters: There are those situations.

[01:23:44] Angela Myer: There are those situations and so you really got to, um, look at your whole situation, your whole picture. Like, if I do try to set this healthy boundary, is he going to smack me? Or if I

[01:23:58] Ed Watters: Right.

[01:23:58] Angela Myer: try to say this, am I going to be punished for it or abused for it? So it's really just, you know, being mindful of what you're going to do before you do it, because you don't want it to backfire on you.

[01:24:15] Ed Watters: That's for sure. Angela, I do thank you for spending time with us here today. And especially for what you're doing, speaking up, writing books, and having a great podcast. That's how people get educated. Because a lot of us, we don't understand how to get out of what we're in. And it

[01:24:36] Angela Myer: Right.

[01:24:36] Ed Watters: takes people talking about it to actually clue them in and educate them into their options, because there are options. Thank you.

[01:24:49] Angela Myer: Thank you so much, Ed. I really appreciate being here and many blessings to you.

[01:24:59] Ed Watters: Thank you for joining us today. If you found this podcast enlightening, entertaining, educational in any way, please share, like, subscribe, and join us right back here next week for another great episode of Dead America Podcast. I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoy your afternoon wherever you may be.



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